JJsushi Posted June 27, 2003 Report Share Posted June 27, 2003 Says naiv: </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Waiting six months doesn't prove shit Maybe he changes his mind in 6 months? Or she finds a better paying long term customer? But of course, you are right. Waiting some time or sending money, etc doesn't proove anything. Which leads me to the 1'000'000 $ question: What prooves anything? Best regards Placing a time limit IMO is silly because the same things can happen in 2 days 6 weeks or six years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJsushi Posted June 27, 2003 Report Share Posted June 27, 2003 Says ABCinBK: Then once she live with the guy, he should stop all this large payment for her living expenses. He's now paying for them directly, and at the most he should only provide a small amount of pocket money. No, small amount doesn't mean 40k baht or even 10k baht. It means whatever is reasonable that farangs provide to farang housewives. It should not become a situation of "institutionalized prostitution" via marriage or long-term cohabitation. ABC There is nothing wrong with your methodology because it may work for some however I think you place way too much emphasis on the "money" angle. Money is what it is. It is a tool to function survive and live in our society. Some people control it and others let it control them. Too think that you can properly gauge someones love or emotional intentions for you based on the "amount" of money you provide proves nothing. It only proves that whatever their needs/wants are they can function on that amount, now if they cannot then they don't and may well move on or find other means to get what they need monetarily. To use money as a "test" or preventitive measure is just plain ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJsushi Posted June 27, 2003 Report Share Posted June 27, 2003 Says ABCinBK: CC, First, let her stay working. Why not? She's a bargirl. Do not support her. Only send money for reimbursement of her calls and email/translations, if even that. If you do, some guys do. If you don't, if she continues emailing/calling it's an even better sign. Remember too that calls are expensive whereas email could be the same sent to multiple guys, plus it's very cheap in LOS. Not bad advice only many guys cannot handle that. Second, communicate with her and see how it goes. If it doesn't pick up to at least bi-daily calls, it's likely just her/you being interested, and you two aren't to the point of you getting married, getting her a visa, you moving over to LOS. Take lot's of time to see how it goes. Fourth, check her story out and be prepared to find omissions and even lies. You will need to evaluate what is unacceptable and will be reason to cut it off. I personally can only accept a very short list of ommissions, and lies are rarely acceptable. Her story may come in layers like an onion over a period of time. How many people are brutally honest to others about themselves in a week or even years of knowing each other? Fifth, learn to accept she's a hooker and don't try to lie to yourself/others that she's not. Too many guys get caught up in this, and I have to ask if you have problems with hookers why are you dating/in love with one? Sure, it may not make sense to tell you parents or your Thai boss (if you were working in LOS), but there's not reason to pretend she isn't/wasn't one, or to get all morally superior when your friends point out she was/is one and the inherent risks. Good advice however once she leaves her profession and is not one anymore t is important that the boyfriend/spouse lets her previous occupation go and realize that she is not a hooker anymore. Sixth, forget about getting all hurt she's screwing around (for money). Don't you/didn't you screw around for sex itself too? If you can't handle her currently screwing around/done so in the past, being with a BG or ex-BG isn't for you. Note: Don't confuse accepting her past (or present when she's still working) with accept her lies. I personally don't get jealous much but I hate liars. They are not my friends or girlfriends for very long. I think the blanket lying policy is harsh. Now if you can accept she is a prostitute and you allow her to keep working then there may be some lying that is still involved. The lie itself is not important but rather it is the INTENTION/PURPOSE of the lie that I would be more concerned with. A person who is used to lying daily in their lives for protective reasons has to be given a reason and time to stop that process. It does not happen overnight. Finally, be prepared to lose her to most guys who will move much quicker. You may repeat this process many times with many girls before the process plays out but then you have a better chance it's real. If you are smart, I would try to apply this process only to non-bargirls, but then in reality so many guys happen to fall for bargirls. Just know the risks and protest yourself. Good advice which can be applied to all relationships. Some guys move quicker than others so be prepared to lose the girl. I also do not believe your chances are just the same with barigrls and non-bargirls. Think about it rationally. Trying a relationship with a hooker is obviously much more risky. The odds are clearly against you statistically. ABC Another guy claiming to know the statistics. Can you provide us with these statistics? Please also include sub-categories such as married less than 1yr, less than 5yr, age differences between spouses, ages of spouses, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABCinBK Posted June 27, 2003 Report Share Posted June 27, 2003 pattaya, I was referring to BGs that have immigrated. That was the context of the post. Sure, it's a generic conclusion, of those that come froma limited perimeter. From other posts and threads, you seem very cognizant money is a major motivator for them in the trade. Do you really think this motivation just disappears? Talk about their earnigs and how business is, and my experiences were girls ranting on about how many ST/LT they've had and who's making the big money. It happens after they realize there's no need for the fantasy facade. I don't agree with a view of people being so helpless and unable to advance without prodding or nudging. It sounds a lot like a paternalistic view of those thinking that are better, even if only due to finances. We are better off, but it takes work and self-motivation. In any event, this view of people need help/being helpless/inherent demotivated, vs. people need to work up the ladder on their own, is an old arguement politically and economically. I'll leave it at that as I don't want to get into such a debate on a board about the sanuk scene. Yes, there are lots of Thais in SFO, and the ones you've seen are staying and doing well. Who knows how many were previously BGs? and how many will be there/married in the next 3-4 years? ABC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJsushi Posted June 27, 2003 Report Share Posted June 27, 2003 Says ABCinBK: Education comes first for what purpose? I don't think working is crap compared to studying. Instead, studying produces nil. The only rational argument, financially speaking, is that studying will lead to better earnings. . . Furthermore, waitresses make about $3 hourly, plus tips. Tips can be up to $15/hour average per day, or up to $55 per hour during the busy weekend evernings. I'd know, as I worked in a Chinese place during college. It paid better than many office workers making less than $38k per year. Still, if the studying leads to a bachelor's, you do come out ahead, "in the long run". The reason that education is important is that it provides options for an individual. It increases their horizons and their cognitive thinking ability. Education does not only provide a better lifestyle financially but it may also enrich a persons overall development. I am sure if the majority of the fulltime prostitutes in LOS had a decent formal education then they wouldn't be selling their bodies to make a living(providing of course the Thai economy was in decent shape, then they might just become part time freelancers with daytime jobs). BTW-waiting is a good gig if you are in the right venue other than that it is shit work. Plus the tips are taxed now and the IRS will start to enforce paying taxes on tips. I agree fully on this, and that's why it makes sense for a TG to study in a Western country, where her diplomas will actually mean much more than some paper from LOS. Well if the chick is going to stay in LOS then a Western education is out of the question and Thai employers do place alot of emphasis on those Thai certificates. Thais with Thai uni degrees usually have to get a US bachelor's to get the same work an American bachelor's recipient gets Stateside though. I fail to follow this remark. There are plenty of Thais with only Thai degrees running Thai companies and holding jobs equivalent to USA jobs. >Big or small or no money - affection can hardly be >substantiated over a week or two in a holiday mode. We all live with our advantages and disadvantages, but there is always the chance to improve if it is sought out. And that may mean someone helping you. Such as a sponsor, benefactor, charity, scholarship, grant, etc. Sometimes one needs to mentored, coached or inspired to improve themselves. To suggest that it all has to be developed from within is riduculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABCinBK Posted June 27, 2003 Report Share Posted June 27, 2003 >No, the value is that she is being educated and she takes >her (not ability) need and obligation at school very >seriously. That's the quality that has surfaced and is being >supported. If your motivation is simply to help and the value is in simply knowing someone is getting an education, that is great and terrific. That's why people often sponsor children thru school in impoverished nations. I did in Haiti and Thailand (still doing this). But that is sponsorship, which I've read other guys have also done like you in LOS. The ones that do so if no expectations of a return, even in affection, are the ones that, in my view, really understand what real sponsorship is. Otherwise, it's just another financial carrot. >Of course I fell for her emotionally. If I did not it would have >been another woman, not her. I was simply pointing out that beyond all the justifications, the reason I got married and the reason you "sponsor" your gf is, in my view, due to primarily falling for some BG. The rest is secondary. >Just imagine youself standing in the middle of a beer bars >cluster and think how many girls around there are bothered >with homework. >She's out of there and showing it. I see your point of pride in her. I am simply asking what is the utilitarian value in it. I think you discuss this farther down. >Spent 100 days with her last year. Will be near that this >year. That is the only way to get to know someone, thru time spent together. I spent 7+30+115+8+4 days with my wife before she came over, all in the coarse of 9 months and in person. She wasn't going to school during this period of time, but you have one point in your history with your gf....during all the times you were/are not there, the schooling certainly did keep her occupied. My wife, gf at the time, had so little time in between that it didn't matter, and in the beginning she was still working anyways. >This is how much: half of my net monthly salary in Japan >covers all support for her for the entire year. If it were >more, I would not mind. All long as you give it with no intentions of it encouraging her to stay on with you. If so, just recognize it's a softened variant on pay for play. >Gauging her sincerity? If she was such a master to fuck me >over for two years now, so be it. Good take on things. For some reason, likely my mistake, I had some impression that you exhibited her educational success and wherewithall as a signal she was sincere in her feelings/intentions in your relationship. My mistake and apologies on this. >Total disagreement from me. To do a work that is not a >monkey-see-monkey-do, you have to now how to do it. >Without education, one's choice of work is limited. >Take my education from me and would have been back - in >a dirt poor family, poorer than bgs, living in a shack in the >weather that goes down to -20C. I work in IT and am an extreme specialist. I've seen a small but clear minority of guys who have HS degrees and yet compete well with those with bachelors easily. They were motivated and pulled themselves up. It happens because there are those that actually make something of themselves instead of using their poor environment as an excuse. But surely, as you've said, it is more difficult. I am just pointing out that the Thai BGs are poor little darlings waiting for white knight sanukers to save them, via education/money/marriage/etc. If that didn't happen, they will survive and they can move up in the world if they stuck with it and had the motivation. This is the difference in our view of environment and opportunities in life obviously. >I did not study in a Western country but still my diploma is >recognized, worked in 10 different countries (US and UK >included), for multinationals like Unisys, AT&T Bell Labs, >IBM... >All work was highly specialized, software engineering and >development. What country did you study in? where was the degree from? Exceptions aside, most people from less developed countries don't get their degrees recognized as equivalent in the US. This makes it harder to just show up and start working. HS students often have to retake years of HS in the US public schools if they can't test out. Same in college. Thai doctors can't even practice in the US without often taking classes again, or at the vear least, testing out. IT is one exception where experience does overcome all of this easily. >Does not come close to full time studies. Part time work >fine, but nothing that may roadblock her. Too late now for >her to take that path. Does the earnings not come close to studying? I'm assuming that's not what you mean as her current studying pays nil while any paid salary/tips would beat that. Sure, in the long run, if the studies lead into something that isn't low paid, her studying will lead to better pay than waitressing/cleaning (maid) etc. I just point this out, as I live across the street from a university and have been heavily involved as a counselor for students. Many don't graduate from college, and then many end up making less than waitresses and blue collar workers due to getting into low paying professions via their chosen degrees. The real value in education, generally speaking, is in changing one's perspective of the world. This I totally concur with. >No, she was not any different of other bgs. Without constant >leading she would have dropped out. >The diffs started surfacing after almost year and a half. >They only came when she looked back and recognized that >her efforts were awarded and when her friends started >reconvining around her for advice, help and favours. So if she was no different, you are saying you were able to use the deferred gratification and promised rewards of education to keep her on a straight path out of the bar scene? I see what you have and are trying to do, but my concern is still that would potentially motivate her to stay for the education more than for you. On the other hand, if she already loved you, then I'd still ask did the education approach really do anything to improve your relationship chances anymore than either having her work (outside the BG scene as you appear to have wanted her out of it) or immigrate to where you are/were and going to school/working from there? >No visa. She is a full time student now and I am going to >Japan for work. Will need some time to settle there. >Her stand is - since it is not Australia - instead of being >bored to death in Japan while I am at work, it's better for >her to study in Thai. >I'll be probably getting her to come over for school holidays >and do my own 6 hrs flights to BKK more often than now. >That's the plan for the next 6-10 months. >If I can find some meaningful occupation for her in Tokyo, >she can always leave her studies and move over. Just curious how Oz makes a difference? I'm a bit suprised you've let her leave her studies, given you value it so much. Despite all my cynicism, you really have done something tremendous here with getting her to study for 8 months or more. Take care. ABC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABCinBK Posted June 27, 2003 Report Share Posted June 27, 2003 jj, I am proposing not placing your financial head on the chopping block, or falling into the trap that as some BG loves me I am going to pay for her to be my wife/a good girl. It doesn't work like that if someone wants something "real". I *think* I had mentioned that just because a BG stays, there are other reasons beyond her being sincere in her feelings towards the guy. But logically, if her primary motivations were money, and she received little of this motivator then as the time she spent increased, it would logically follow that she would seek better rewards elsewhere. I do agree, if someone were happy or able to live with what money they got, they would stay. After all, my whole idea is not to make them do things for money. The idea is to avoid paying as much as possible to avoid creating any financial motivation for her staying. The theory goes that if she stays and there is no/minimal monetary motivator, than she will be there for better and hopefully the right reason(s). It is simply my understanding that if someone stays with you for money, then if they received none, they would move on. Certainly, you are totally right, should they simply wish to be supported and have a better life, as the standard of living would generally be better for a farang in a Western country or one living by the standard so many farang enjoy in LOS. Then you have a marriage not so much based on love but her being comfortable. It is not something I'd want, but it is not being with a gold-digger, which I would think is much worse. As for guaging someone's intention with money, I am not proposing that you use money to get them to love you. That is ridiculous. I am proposing you remove money as a motivator. If someone is around for money and they don't get it, they will hopefully just move on. It is a passive approach, in that the girl usually persues the guy (already strange based on my Western culture) and the guy simply has to be more controlling of his wallet and his heart, and observe her intentions and wherewithall over time. I think this is a very rational concern (that the girl is there mainly for the money), given you are dealing with a bargirl and you/I were the paying customers. ABC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABCinBK Posted June 27, 2003 Report Share Posted June 27, 2003 jj, It is hard for guys to let a girl they care about continue to be a BG, but that is what he fell in love with. I think you can get over it when you realize sex and love aren't neccassarily connected. It can be but it's not implicit. They're two differnt things. >Her story may come in layers like an onion over a period of >time. How many people are brutally honest to others about >themselves in a week or even years of knowing each other? True. I've heard that old saying that Thais and Asians are like onions. Still, everyone has their threshold or limits on how much lies by action or by ommission they will deal with. That is a personal choice. I simply decided it's better to not deal with someone if they exceed the threshold. In my case, if the limits are hit, I'll either withdraw partially or completely. >Good advice however once she leaves her profession and is >not one anymore t is important that the boyfriend/spouse >lets her previous occupation go and realize that she is not a >hooker anymore. Good point. And in the same manner if she can let go of his being a sanuker. It's a 2 way street. If she can't tow the lineon this, there's no reason her should either. So many "ex-BGs" simply can't let go of their guy's past, but try to justify theirs. >I think the blanket lying policy is harsh. Now if you can >accept she is a prostitute and you allow her to keep working >then there may be some lying that is still involved. The lie >itself is not important but rather it is the >INTENTION/PURPOSE of the lie that I would be more >concerned with. A person who is used to lying daily in their >lives for protective reasons has to be given a reason and >time to stop that process. It does not happen overnight. This is getting into relative values vs. absolute values. I obviuosly am with the latter, but there's no reason to get into this debate here. If they lie, they lie. If you accept it and/justify it, that's what you do. In the process, you will send a message that it's ok, at least with proper "justification", to lie again. There doesn't have to be lying if she keeps working, if they can both be accepting of what she does for money. If he can't or she can't come to admit to her work, then there's a problem. We understood certain things, like her getting "lucky" a particular night, if the BG feels compelled to be indirect. I'd prefer to just say, "so you got barfined tonight?" That was it. Why lie? If you lie, I won't trust you anymore and maybe never again, end of story. >Good advice which can be applied to all relationships. Some >guys move quicker than others so be prepared to lose the >girl. And I was. And I think I mentioned that's a risk of my suggested approach. >Another guy claiming to know the statistics. Can you >provide us with these statistics? Please also include sub->categories such as married less than 1yr, less than 5yr, age >differences between spouses, ages of spouses, etc. I said: "I also do not believe your chances are just the same with barigrls and non-bargirls. Think about it rationally. Trying a relationship with a hooker is obviously much more risky. The odds are clearly against you statistically." I am saying if you think it thru logically, the chances are going to be against you. I should not have used the word "statistically". You don't need stats to think it out and evaluate the very "real" risks, in my view. If someone wants to rationalize how it is less risky (or even equally risky) to date a prostitute you were once a paying customer for, and how the chances of her not playing out a fantasy of loving him (for the purpose of getting money) is less likely (than say with a non-prostitute woman), then I think others can come to their conclusions of whose view they would like to best subscribe to. The question is if a prostitute is more likely to lie to a guy to get money? Is she more likely to become his girlfriend for money? Is she more likely to marry him primarily for money? Is she more likel to sell herself/her "relationship potential" for money? Add to this that the guy started knowing her as a customer! Everyone should be able to make their own conclusions here. ABC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattaya127 Posted June 27, 2003 Report Share Posted June 27, 2003 From other posts and threads, you seem very cognizant money is a major motivator for them in the trade ------------------------------- it's a major factor in everyone's trade, I'd say. I do not find the girls particularly greedy, but yes, we all will need money coming until we die. old arguement politically and economically. ---------------------------------------------------- WoW! No, it's just my experience being around GFs and girls. Yes, there are lots of Thais in SFO, and the ones you've seen are staying and doing well. Who knows how many were previously BGs? -------------------------------------- I mentionned a few were. All types, even ex-mia nois to thais. We had a discussion before where I mentionned most thais I know or know of (the friends to the ones I know) date back to early 90s. I said one of these went back to Thailand after 10 years. A long story, though.... All the others are staying put, and God, it's marvelous to see people come into their own, and still keep their thainess on the sleeve (as i do my frenchness ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattaya127 Posted June 27, 2003 Report Share Posted June 27, 2003 BTW, you have not answered my question. How many thais living abroad have you know been knowing in a reasonable amount of years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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