Have you ever had an HIV test ???

[lembeh]

>In a nutshell, Josh Ingu cited the wrong paper in support of his argument.

 

 

Sorry but this is just simply wrong. I checked back on the original post. I posted the correct link, which is through medline/PubMed. I have just checked and the paper is an "open" one, which means you can click through to the actual paper. There is no confusion here.

 

>quoting you information from a paper that is not even referenced in my piece on survival times in Africa vs. the West. In fact, until just now, I have never seen the paper he quotes from, .

 

 

Obvioulsy, for an "expert" in the field to be unaware of relavent literature is a pretty poor admission. The work is freely accessible, in a publication that is part of the british medical Journal Stable of publication. It is accessable through pubmed, and as said, the work is a peer reviewed article, in contrast to the "study" you cite which is on a web site with *no* peer review. Indeed the article is on a "health" website!!

 

>nor does it even pertain to the subject matter I speak of in my article

 

This is just a bizzare statement, given that he is talking about survival rates of HIV infected africans in the presence or absence of meds.

 

 

I am sorry, be we are talking apples and pears here. I give you peer reviewed, carefully undertaken work, and you respond with websites, spliced emails and deliberate mis-citing of data.

 

 

The paper I linked to is not *that* difficult to read even to the layman, and anyone reading this thread (which, frankly I doubt, cause even I am bored by it) is encouraged to *try* to read the paper given in my links to get the information to decide for themselves.

-j-

[lembeh]

 

 

By the way, I have just looked up your posting record. You have made 17 posts, all on HIV/AIDS issues, all promoting the same "virus myth" story. Looks very much like you are a "one issue" poster, and are merely using this board as a platform to promote your weird ideas.

 

The virus myth tactics of mis-interpretation, mis-presentation and out right lies is tiresome to debate against. I have shown *clearly* that the works of respectable scientists (i.e Morgan) have been completely mis-represented.

 

If, or when, you can start to produce *real* arguments, backed up by the published, peer reviewed body of literature, I will take part in this argument again. Until then refuting fools and liars is not worth my time.

cheers

josh

[New Petchburi Pete]

I know bar girls who have tested positive & continue to 'work.'

 

[thamachat]

Thalenoi, it is hardly surprising that someone who takes heroin would test Hiv positive. Recreational drug use is known to produce false positives on the Hiv tests, and on top of that as an addict she probably had lots of other infections that also cause false positives. By having this person tested, you have helped to destroy any hope she may have for the future, and that in itself can cause a person to die, due to the documented immune-suppressive effects of intense psychological stress, depression and Hiv-induced social isolation. Congratulations. But hey, you got yours, right? Who cares about the whore?

 

Why didn?t you just use a condom? Your odds would have been astronomical to catch Hiv from her with a condom.

[thamachat]

Hey, Josh Ingu, nice work. I know that your time is very valuable, you are an esteemed professional no doubt, and mustn't be troubled by "fools and liars" even though you cannot show me one instance where I have "lied" about anything we have talked about.

 

You haven't lied either, you've just shown yourself to be someone who makes sloppy observations and tries to pass them off as "science." No doubt you feel very much at home among the Aids scientists, who do much the same thing.

 

Let me remind you of your incensed rebuttal to one of the points in my article:

You said that "the guy?s [Morgan et al's] work is being quoted in the exact opposite of what he says in the paper. Typical virus myth distortion, mis represenation and absolute

fabrication."

 

And I showed that you are quoting from a paper that was not even referenced in Dr. Richards' article which I referred to. The paper you are referring to measured time from Aids to death, not time from seroconversion to death, which is what Dr. Richards was talking about. So where is the distortion and misrepresentation? Caught with your pants down, you think you can just bluster and name-call your way out of it. Who cares if I've only posted on Aids? What relevance does that have to this argument? Some people only post about BJ bars, I post about Aids. So what? Maybe that will fool some people, as a lot of people are fooled by blustering and name-calling and posturing and changing the subject (hence the typical American electoral campaigns) but those of us who can analyze can see that you shot your mouth off without knowing what you were talking about.

 

I presume you work in some Aids related field, is that correct? If so, your reasoning and accuracy are about par for the course for "Aids science."

 

As for Dr. Richards' article not being in a peer reviewed journal, that's easy to explain. Articles that go against the dogma on Hiv and Aids are subject to massive censorship, not only in the media, but in the scientific journals. We like to think that scientific journals are above it all, but they, too, are on the take from the drug companies. The pages of scientific journals are crammed with pharmaceutical advertising that makes these journals big money making enterprises. If you think this does not affect what gets published you're really living in Cloud Cuckoo Land.

 

But, hey, you, Josh, appear to be in the medical field, and you "peer-reviewed" Dr. Richards' paper, and we see that you totally misrepresented it. Are you just a lot slower than the medical journals' peer reviewers? Duesberg nicely exposed the ?peer review? system as in reality just an ?old boy?s network? of dogmatic scientists protecting their pet theories from proper scrutiny. Read his book.

 

Dr. Richards' qualifications are formidable: PhD, Biochemist, Founding scientist for the biotech company Amgen. Collaborated with Abbott Laboratories in developing some of the first HIV tests. Are yours as impressive?

 

People have a right to know that there are hundreds of doctors and scientists who dispute all this Hiv dogma. That's what it boils down to. Not just Duesberg, but literally hundreds are on record as disputing the validity of 'Hiv science' and it is essential that people know this in order to have true informed consent to the Aids industry's voodoo tests and drugs.

 

Josh, you?re a compassionate guy. What are you doing to institute changes in the Hiv testing protocols in Thailand? I exposed the fact that people in Thailand are being diagnosed Hiv+ without a confirmatory test, which would be grounds for malpractice in the US. And probably means that a very large percentage of Hiv-stigmatized Thai people, from 20 to 80 percent, have been diagnosed with Hiv falsely, and had their lives destroyed. As a compassionate, caring member of the medical profession, are you taking steps to make the Western Blot a mandatory part of Hiv testing in Thailand?

 

Explain to me why US taxpayers pay to have the CDC maintain Aids offices in foreign countries, and why these CDC satellite offices support the use of testing protocols in Thailand that would not be considered acceptable proof of Hiv infection in the US. Why do these same CDC offices support the use in Thailand of toxic, liver-destroying drugs like Nevirapine--which has been banned in the US for MTCT (mother to child transmission)--but it is somehow okay to use it on dark slanty eyed people in Thailand! Is there any good reason for the US taxpayer to be supporting this kind of racist 'science,' except for the fact that it makes drug companies and "Aids experts" oodles of money?

 

Before you tell me that nevirapine has been ?proven? to reduce MTCT, digest this, from Dr. Marcia Angell, former editor in chief of the New England Journal of Medicine and now Senior Lecturer at Harvard Medical School:

 

"Research is biased in favor of the drugs and drug makers. The pharmaceutical industry spends a great deal to influence people in academic medicine and professional societies. It does a super job of making sure [that] nearly every important person they can find in academic medicine [who] is involved in any way with drugs is hired as a consultant, as a speaker, is placed on an advisory board -- and is paid generous amounts of money.

 

"Conflicts of interest are rampant. When the New England Journal of Medicine published a study of antidepressants, we didn't have room to print all the authors' conflict-of-interest disclosures. We had to refer people to the website. I wrote an editorial for the journal, titled 'Is Academic Medicine for Sale?' Someone wrote a letter to the editor that answered the question, 'No. The current owner is very happy with it.' That sums up the situation nicely."

 

When is the Aids industry going to admit to the world that probably millions of people have been misdiagnosed and stigmatized with the "Hiv positive" curse, their lives ruined, many of them committing suicide--due to these shoddy testing protocols such as are used in Thailand? As a supporter of the orthodoxy, Dr. H. Repke, writes: "The currently used laboratory based and rapid HIV-tests show intolerably high numbers of false positive results when used in developing countries. This is mainly due to interfering effects of diseases virtually absent in developed countries."

 

Another recent MD convert to the dissident side:

 

?There are serious problems with AIDS and HIV statistics as created by WHO and UNAIDS that make them completely unreliable.?

 

?TB can trigger a false positive with the HIV test?does this not affect international AIDS statistics as they are dependent on HIV test results??

 

?Pregnancy can trigger false positives?does this not affect international AIDS statistics that are almost completely dependent on HIV tests of blood of pregnant women??

 

?In Africa, many poor countries have little medicine?and if AIDS is diagnosed they do not ?waste? their precious stocks of medicines on the ?AIDS? patient suspected to be ?concurrently suffering from? TB or dysentery or malaria or SLIM. How then does one resist the potentially resistible mortality for those Africans who are wrongly diagnosed with AIDS??

 

?Figures from WHO/UNAIDS stated there were 2.2 million cumulative AIDS deaths in Uganda, yet the Ugandan Ministry of Health had a total record of only 56,000 deaths.?

 

??Official government bodies?could only account for about 7% of the total 28 million deaths WHO and UNAIDS declared had occurred through AIDS?Russia could account for only 5%?India only 2%, and China only 1%. What is going on at WHO and UNAIDS, who or what is responsible for such gross inaccuracies??

 

?If WHO and UNAIDS figures are so inaccurate, and create unnecessary fear amongst poor communities that should have other priorities for spending the little assets they hold, would that not play into the hands of unscrupulous drug companies that wish to extend HIV testing into these poor countries and acquire those assets through the purchase of very toxic drugs that would be given to poverty stricken people, especially pregnant women and their children, who would know no better - drugs such as Nevirapine, banned in the USA but already being delivered to Africa by drug companies and that could be foisted on unsuspecting mothers who have false positive HIV tests or ?flawed? Bangui diagnoses??

 

?AIDS modelling has declared South African universities rampant with infection with 1 in 4 undergraduates expected to die of AIDS within 10 years. Real samples suggest an on-campus prevalence about 1.1%. South African banks tested 29,000 staff for HIV as models suggested 12% rates. Real tests showed about 3%. Prisons test infections for HIV and the rate in Grahamstown jail was only 2-4%, with only 2 deaths from AIDS in 7 years. Recorded prison rates are about 2.3% yet the media has reported estimates of as much as 60%.?

 

?The World Bank claimed African teachers to be dying of AIDS faster than being replaced and the BBC reported that 1 in 7 (14%) of Malawian teachers would die in 2002. Bennell, a Health Policy Analyst, found the all causes death rate amongst teachers in Malawi to be under 3%. In Botswana figures appear to be 3 times lower than estimates and in Zimbabwe 4 times lower.?

 

?If UNAIDS and WHO are so incredibly wrong, why do they persist in the apparent deception-and could it have anything to do with their allegiance to international pharmaceutical giants and ?AIDS industry? bodies??

 

?350 million Africans get malaria each year but do not appear to have the right to anti-malarial treatment. 2 million get TB annually yet AIDS spending is 90 times higher than TB spending and there is little left over for treating pneumonias, cancers, parasitics, bacterials or diabetes. What scientific or political justification could there be for this??

BMJ Rapid Response, 21 December 2003

 

-- Dr. John P. Heptonstall, MD, D.Ac., Director, Morley Acupuncture Clinic and Complementary Therapy Centre, Leeds, UK

[SingaporeSteve]

Not disputing your comments about testing in Thailand viz a viz other countries but I would assume that a viral load test is absolute confirmation of HIV infection (assuming of course its showing a viral load activity) or have you researched other reasons for such possible readings?

 

Also, if I am not mistaken many of the leading hospitals use western blot tests here - although no idea what happens up country. Personally I am also amazed at how many bar girls I have spoken to have their monthly blood test results in 20 minutes down the local walk in clinic at a cost of some 200 baht a time whereas in Bumrungrad I think the anti-HIV test costs around 2000 baht and takes 3 days to get the results. I have concluded that the avaerage walk in clinic does not even do a proper test, probably draws some blood, asks the girl if she boom singh no condom and then announce 20 mins later that everything is all OK.

[thamachat]

Singapore Steve?many hospitals doubtless do Western Blots but the accepted routine in Thailand is that you don?t do them unless there is disagreement between the two screening tests. If both screening tests read positive, the person is called positive and the WB is generally not done. Maybe they do them for someone who is rich and Hiv-savvy and knows enough to demand that one be done, but how many Thais fall into that category?

 

This business of bars and massage parlors making girls get a monthly test is really outrageous. Month after month, sooner or later there is a good chance a girl will have some temporary condition that will cause a false positive. It?s just playing Russian Roulette, over and over and over.

 

Since my article was published in The Nation, I understand that some Thailand Aids doctors are talking about upgrading the Thai standards so that a WB is done, but to my knowledge no changes have been made yet, and personally I will be surprised if it actually happens, since giving a WB routinely will cut down drastically on the number of Hiv positives diagnosed in Thailand, and then the Aids establishment will find it difficult to claim the existence of an epidemic, and this could put them out of business. Imagine, the CDC offices in Thailand might actually have to pack up and go home to the US! You know that entrenched bureaucracies will resist this with all their might. And it is a characteristic of the medical profession that they would rather die than ever admit they committed an error that cost many people their lives.

 

And if Thailand ever does institute a routine Western Blot, will it have the same evaluation criteria as is used in, say, Australia (where four bands must react for a positive result), or will it have the ?easy-poz? two-band=positive criteria that they use on those occasions when they do a WB in Thailand today?

 

These girls going to the walk-in clinics are probably just getting a ?rapid? test, or at best two screening tests. I also wonder whether there is a tendency among Hiv testers to assume the worst if they know or suspect that a person is a prostitute, and therefore tip the scales toward ?positive? in the case of ambiguous test results. There is evidence that this is done in the west if the tester ?knows? that someone is gay, for instance. Indeed, that?s why they routinely ask for ?risk group? information when they do a test, and use it to help interpret the test. So there?s some subjectivity that enters into the process and can prejudice the result for people like gays and prostitutes.

 

You can see that the discrepancies and injustices in Hiv testing are many.

 

As for viral load, contrary to what is reported, there is much dispute over its accuracy and its significance. Here are some good references on this:

 

http://healtoronto.com/vload.html

http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/mitests.htm

This last by Matt Irwin, who is now an MD.

[iuytrede]

>>This business of bars and massage parlors making girls get a monthly test is really outrageous. Month after month, sooner or later there is a good chance a girl will have some temporary condition that will cause a false positive. It’s just playing Russian Roulette, over and over and over.

 

At least here you have a point.

But i guess most readers of this thread gave up reading long ago...

[Guest]

You are full of shit. That might be helped if you would actually spend some time with AIDS patients instead of cut and pasting from websites you appearantly have not the professional or whatever qualification and capacity to understand. And, by the way, I am not part of the medical establishment and it"s "conspiracy", so I don't pretend to understand anything else than I am forced to see ever fucking day.

I don't know where you get your bullshit from about inadequate testing by fly by night labs here in Thailand, but I can assure you that my numerous relatives and friends with AIDS do get tested and treated very well and very professionally here.

Upcountry the AIDS care is extremely well organized thanks to the health professionals here in Thailand and the MSF who has done most of the training. HIV positive do get treatment with antiretroviral drugs for free upcountry (only Bangkok has still a few problems) by the local village hospitals, tests are done monthly (later on after the CD 4 count gets above the critical 200, every three months). The blood is sent to the nearest provincial hospital with adequate lab facilities.

A few practical examples: my uncle was brought to the hospital about 7 months ago, he was not far from dying, coughing blood. After numerous tests he was also tested for HIV, turned out positive, CD4 count was 60, he had rather bad meningitis as well. Now, after 7 months on antiretrovirals (GPO vir, fortunately hardly any side effects) he is very healthy. No meningitis anymore, CD4 count 130 and rising. He halves his time between staying with us in Bangkok and staying with the rest of the clan in the village.

And if you think that the epidemic is not there, you are very mistaken. It just starts to become visible now, and lots of people are dead, and dying. In our village of around 200 households there are at the moment 60 HIV patients treated with antiretroviral medicine, but it is estimated that there are 3 times more infected (and lots have died in the last three or four years, so many that nowadays AIDS is the number one cause of death there).

Some of them are known, but they either refuse treatment, or do not get it anymore due to not keeping up with the necessarily rigorous schedule.

Rather simple: the ones I know who take antiretroviral drugs do get better. The ones who don't, waste away and die soon.

I know a girl since 3 years who is on antiretrovirals since about seven years. 7 years ago she was down to 30 kilos, already blind. Now she is over 50 kilos, working as a telephonist and doing extremely well even though her blindness.

 

Lets stop the crap - I have an offer for you: why don't you show some real courage and convince us about your theories in real life? One of my best mates here was a few weeks ago tested positive, CD4 count of 130, but fortunately no secondary infections yet. He is since 3 weeks on GPO vir. So, apart from his HIV infection his blood is "clean" - why don't you meet me and we inject some of his blood into your veins? Or, we can inject you the blood of a relative of mine who is foolishly refusing treatment, but I am afraid that her blood is not that clean anymore as she has lots of secondary infections (but hurry up - she's not gonna make it much longer).

Any fucking time we can do that. Or just shut the fuck up and piss off. All you do is cut and pasting from sources you have no qualifications to verify. You piss on the hard work of all the dedicated health officials who often had to risk their lives (death threads of pharma giants against generic manufacturers come to mind...) to help those poor cunts who got infected.

AIDS is real, far too real for my taste. I wish I wouldn't know about it, but after several dead relatives, many more infected, and now even one of my closest friends here, I am running out of patience with ignorant fools like you.

[check_bin_krap]

I thought a HIV test was pretty clear, I did not know that there is evaluation on "who it is"?

 

Explain please? As far as I know, its a straight forward medical test. I don't believe you over the medicals in my country, I think you are full of SHIT !!!