Taking the girl out of the bar forever(?)

[soongmak]

You are seriously pissing me of, TTM. In case you don't know, english is not my native language. I hate this ping-pong just as much as you do. So if you can be so kind to stop this enigmatic shit and just explain to me what all that mumbo-jumbo about the ankle, the shoe and the rope has to do with you raising points without really addressing them I would be much obliged.

[think_too_mut]

soongmak said:

You are seriously pissing me of, TTM. In case you don't know, english is not my native language. I hate this ping-pong just as much as you do. So if you can be so kind to stop this enigmatic shit and just explain to me what all that mumbo-jumbo about the ankle, the shoe and the rope has to do with you raising points without really addressing them I would be much obliged.

 

So, no news from you about what you really know about taking prositutes back to normal life and what problems you have came accros along the way?

 

I told you mine.

 

(I learned English 12 years ago).

[Sukhumvit]

If you're going to take her out of the bar forever then why pay the 10000 baht to allow her to return?

 

Or should the thread be re-titled

"Taking the girl out of the bar temporarily" ?

 

::

[soongmak]

while you were bungee jumping i decided to go home for dinner.

 

I am out of here.

 

Let me know when you are ready to back up your opinion with you know, facts or ehrm, elaborations, and who knows I might get back to you.

[Encore]

At the risk of having my head bitten off, or drowning in more words, I'd like to make an obeservation about the debate here.

 

(excerpts from teh discussion between TTM and Soongmak):

 

>>My point however is that there are no common personality traits that a person has to have to enter the prostitution, <<

 

>Sorry to disagree, but IME & IMO there are.

 

..........

 

There are some shades in the character that make girls choose their way into prostitution.

 

Those attributes make it hell hard to cope with the girl. Most of the "rescuers" would not know how to deal with their own life, let alone to take a responsibility for correcting somebody's shortfalls and guide her into the mainstream.

 

On the girl's part, irresponsibility, stubborness, lack of education are the major obstacles. All they see is 30 mins ago and what is next. Not normal for the always mainstream girls. Normal girls build on the past, commitment and the joint venture (in best possible terms).<

 

END of Quote

 

I think there is a basic confusion about terms.

'Common personality traits'

'Shades in character'

'attributes'

 

then as major obstacles a mention is made of " irresponsibility, stubborness, lack of education"

 

 

Personality traits are part inherited, part formed by upbringing & environment.

 

Lack of education has very little to do with 'character or personality' It is simply a function of poverty, and maybe a local or family culture where education is not valued, sometimes because it simply has never been really available to all, so isn't taken into the equasion when parents and children think about a child's future.

 

Now, 'irresponsibility and stubborness'.

 

I have had some major involvement with two separate situations of a girl being helped out of the bar.

In both, i have noticed those 'attributes'. Both (sample of 2 means very little, I know) also appeared to have very inflammable tempers, were extremely jealous, and occasionally would go totally off the wall, overboard with anger, throw everything they's strived for out of the window because they felt someone trod on their soul..

 

Maybe some of us here who tried to help a girl out of a bar have come across similar experiences.

 

But are those 'attributes' really personality traits? Are they predetermined common factors in the girls character that had to be there in order for her to make a decision to go and work as a prostitute?

 

I doubt it. i think, of the 'attributes' or 'behaviour characteristics' I mentioned above, some may have been a reaction to events that happened to the girl before she made a decision to work as a sex worker, --

 

( in the case of one of my sample of two, she was chronically beaten by her father, and sent off at age 14 by her older sister to go and work as a domestic in BKK, because the sister was afraid that the next time dad got angry he may do the girls more lasting harm. In her domestic job in BKK, she was raped. she went to the police, who laughed her away, suggesting she asked for it. eventually, she decided she was spoiled goods, nobody loved her anyway, and just as well go earn better money for 'easier' work. )

 

-- AND/OR some of these behaviour characteristics may have developed as a result of sex work.

 

If you're really down and out, and feel like nothing will ever go right again, your self esteem is totally shot, irresponsible and stubborn behaviour are quite understandable. after all, what have you got to loose?

 

I think what many (I'm not saying all, not even a majority, just 'many') appear to have in common is that at some stage, they've been badly hurt, emotionally and or physically, maybe abandoned, maybe betrayed, maybe abused. That hurt may express itself in many different ways. IMHO these expressions of hurt are NOT 'personality traits'.

 

I think, any falang getting into a Rt with a Thai woman is in for a steep learning curve. The gap in culture will make the Rt a bit more challenging then a RT with a woman of his own culture.

If there is a gap in age, that may contribute to the challenge.

If a gap in education, more so.

If the woman is a BG/exBG, the chances of her experiences as a BG plus the experiences that may have contributed to her becoming a BG, may add to the challenge.

 

The challenge of a falang /thai Rt is complex and multi factored. I tend to think that if the woman is an ex BG, this may add a bit to the challenge, but not be the sole and main determinator on whether it will be a succes or not. It may add to the amount of patience, tolerance and determination that will be required to make it work. patience and tolerance may sometiems be in short supply in the woman, so the man may need an extra dose of that.

 

 

As to the question of whetehr it makes a difference to the chance of success if the man was ever a WM or not, that is another question.

 

IMHO, it could work both ways. If he was, he may become again. then again, if he was, he may have an inkling of understanding of some of the factors in the womans past that have contributed to her current state of mind. I found it has made me a bit more tolerant and understanding towards both BGs as well as those who are working their way out of it.

 

BTW, the two women who have helped my understanding both seem to have made it.

 

One finished a degree in my country and has a good job now. She has a relation with a somewhat younger man, where she seems to be mostly in charge of the relation. she still has emotional flashbacks to her past, but copes betetr and betetr with them.

 

the otehr one is living with her husband of 2 years in teh UK, has a son of a year, and by the reports i get, is happy and well adjusted.

 

My thanks to both women for giving me the opportunity to be part of their learning and change process.

[think_too_mut]

>Lack of education has very little to do with 'character or personality' It is simply a function of poverty, and maybe a local or family culture where education is not valued, sometimes because it simply has never been really available to all, so isn't taken into the equasion when parents and children think about a child's future.

 

 

Let's say it this way: wasted formative years.

 

Work in fish cannery at age 14-19 instead of going to school. That would make changes (or, rather, prevent them) in character compared to regular schoolgirls.

[pattaya127]

What more you need than that they are prostitutes. Labelled like that by their own and by us: Prostitutes.

---------------------------------

 

In all due respect, TTM, this tells me you judge the girl by the label, then. Fine, as you say, it's your opinion, but my feeling is you would have said that before you ever went to Thailand for the first time, and this is pretty much what i read in what you and HT say: They're prostitutes, therefore, they're flawed since the occupation is bad, and expect them to be all the same, on the negative side. No need to claim you know 2 dozens of them. 3 or 96, your mind was made up.

 

IMO, you have a very limited view of the whole sex worker scene. Men make women prostitutes. if the industry was not so conspicuous, and guys did not go to brothels and joints, the girls would find hard to sell sex. Who wants it the most, who has the best "mentality" to be in the scene then? IMO, guys. After all million fly 10 to 20 hours to get there, or cross borders to get laid. That's some mentality for the scene, right there. You just can't put down the girls and not the guys too.

 

as for the 24H/7 days argument, it's simply not true or the right way to look at it. Girls don't think about getting laid every hour for money, and no more than the guys who meet them. Tourist girls, a good share of thai/thai girls too, do not get laid as if there was no tomorrow. Unless they are pimped, indentured or ravaged by drug abuse, their day goes along like a lot of thais not selling sex. They may adopt a mind frame according to the job asked of them, but again, it's nothing worse than other thais.

 

Actually, if you compile the posts on nanaP where guys have grievances caused by thais, it's hardly sex workers who are causing them, save a few horror stories here and there. sex workers are simply, IMO, a good bunch, hardly the worse that Thailand has in store for farangs or anyone.

[thalenoi]

soongmak said:

My point however is that there are no common personality traits that a person has to have to enter the prostitution, and this is what some posters keep repeating. Saying that most whores are liars, or greedy or lazy is not a fact backed up by research, it is simply a prejudice.

soongmak

 

I have to agree with this sentence.

Ever occurred here that all human beings are different, therefore these generalisations are rather stupid.

We all have different experiences and can only talk about particularities.

 

TTM has his experience, Soongmaak his one and myself my own.

 

I can tell you she wanted to get away from the scene, that was what we did and why we live in Chumpon or any oher far-from-the scene place that would do.

 

An RT with a an ex-bg is not more difficult than any RT, it's probably different and if the rewards are a happy life, what's more important???

 

I am trully tired of this discusion and dudes insulting other dudes because one think holding the only thruth....sounds like religion fanatics to me...

 

Some peoples opinions are sad indeed, but why should I care?

I rather care for the gf I live with and leave the discussion to those who don't care....

[MrX]

Suk wrote: "If you're going to take her out of the bar forever then why pay the 10000 baht to allow her to return?

 

Or should the thread be re-titled

"Taking the girl out of the bar temporarily" ?"

 

Hi Suk

 

What would you do?

 

girl is a teenager (legal working age)

 

She wants to quit bar work

 

I dont commit

 

the bar is a) exceptionally fun and goodpaying

she has worked only there, and for quite a while

c) there are several soulmate co-workers from her moo bahn

 

bar leads her to believe she will actively be not re-employed without the buy out fee..also she will not be welcome there as a visitor....

[think_too_mut]

rompandadam said:

 

girl is a teenager (legal working age)

 

bar leads her to believe she will actively be not re-employed without the buy out fee..also she will not be welcome there as a visitor....

 

Isn't legal working age for a gogo 21? How could she be a teenager then and working there for a while already?

 

"She will not be welcome as a visitor": more than that. She will be banned if 10K is not paid. Not sure, maybe they will let her in if she is in company of a farang.