bibblies Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 flyonzewall said:for jjsushi it appears to be a rather important issue, otherwise he wouldn't have posted it, asking for advice, innit? I'm going to make a wild guess here and say that he knew what to do before he posted it and pretty much just wanted to try to impress us bottom-feeding whoremonging low-lives with his urbanity in actually even knowing 6 Thai people outside our age and class range... Social climber. :: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattaya127 Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 You make it seem like its so important one way or the other. I don't think so. ------------------------- Guys, FlyW is right, it's JJ who brings it here and seems to put some importance in it. Basically, it seems he is trying to get benefits from it without the inconveniences (which FlyW says, have to pop up at some point, i tend to agree), and sure, don't we all in life, but IMO, this is exactly what "buying into it" means, JJ. It matters to you, it is self-motivated/ingratiating, and it also seems that you wish to navigate thru it for your self-interest and self-preservation in that social group. I think you mention "aunties" in your OP. That is exactly what FlyW brought up again. Playing it like family, when basically, these titles are superficial as regards you. I would venture another opinion. No matter how close or attached they are to you, you are actually a negligeable part of their equation, as relates to their mutual inter-thai problems, for being a farang especially not a live-in one at that. Nothing to do with belittling you, actually, i see it as a prerogative even, but by keeping in mind the little importance (formal, not affective) you have in those family/thai RS, you will come out the better, even in their eyes. (FlyW, any thoughts on this?) JJ, Ride the wave, stay quiet, visit places you have not seen yet, it is truly none of your business. Any positionning other than neutral and above the fray, is a disservice to yourself. IMO, of course.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJsushi Posted October 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 bibblies said: flyonzewall said:for jjsushi it appears to be a rather important issue, otherwise he wouldn't have posted it, asking for advice, innit? I'm going to make a wild guess here and say that he knew what to do before he posted it and pretty much just wanted to try to impress us bottom-feeding whoremonging low-lives with his urbanity in actually even knowing 6 Thai people outside our age and class range... Social climber. :: Bibblies, How do i love thee? Let me count the ways. . . 0 We all have an idea of what we want to do before we do it, sometimes we like to hear the views of others to see if we are missing another side of things. Being a man of logic and numbers you should be able to appreciate "Game Theory". To me my situation is sort of an exercise in game theory. I am not a social climber, you silly man, I am an OPPORTUNIST. BTW- I know more than 6 Thai people outside the P4P scene; the exact number is 9! which includes my favorite som tam seller.. Now stop interupting the thread with your silly prattle and let others contribute to a thread that allows us to look at situation that go beyond "is a GTG a better mate than a non-prostitute" or 'how do I know if my BG loves me?". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 >>>(FlyW, any thoughts on this?) <<< lots of thoughts, but difficult for me to put in proper order. different than most countries in the west, thailand is still basically a clan oriented society - on ALL levels. blood is thicker than water. you behave along clan lines, make decisions based on the clan, you don't move against the clan. as a foreigner, if you want to have some sort of security within the place here, you better do learn about that. if you marry a thai woman - you marry into a clan. that can be rather burdensome, but has advantages as well. and, in times of conflict - if you became some sort of member of the clan - the clan will support you much further than a normal family in the west would. of course you are only that far a member of the clan as someone from the outside marries into a clan for many years. over the years (decades even) you will become somewhat a full member of the clan as you move up the age hirarchy - and the younger members will show you the loyality and respect an elder member demands. this is the optimum one can reach, and it takes lots of effort: comand of the language is just the beginning, taking over responsibility (and i do not mean turning into a cashcow - that gets no respect whatsoever), etc. the position JJsushi is in, is that he has not taken the advice of his "aunts" - to get married with a suitable partner. he is unattached in a middle of a conflict, without any supportsysthem of a family *EVERY* thai has. in this case it does not matter if he moves in the higher or the lower echelons of society. lets try an extreme, but i believe, suitable example: as i have stated several times, my missus is more or less from the other extreme of thai society jjsushi has described. should me and the missus get into a conflict even with a richer family, they would be more than careful with us as they know exactly that bullets are very cheap here, and *every* thai family has either access to, or even clan members, who are gunmen. someone may accuse me as being "mr. doom and gloom", but that is the way how many social conflicts end here in thailand even in the very high echeleons of society. just read the news... i am not saying that this case here will come to that point, or even if it would, that jjsushi will have to fear anything along those lines. what i try to stress is the utter importance of the clan. you don't have one - you have nothing to fall back on other than a ticket out of the country. there are aspects of this society which are very foreign to a modern westerner (and generally they only tend to be appearant in times of conflict). the clan systhem (and the peer systhem) is one of the most difficult things to understand, especially the politics of conflict. if you haven't been part of some conflict along those lines you might not really understand what i am saying. in those conflicts people should better forget very fast our way of thinking, of "good" and "bad", the only moral is how a perceived, or real threat against the clan, or peer group is fought against best, most efficiently, and lasting (even if it means an honor killing). if you only move around the modern appearing scenery of upper middle class bangkok it mightt sound completely unbelievable what i post, but if you moved for a while in village thailand you will know the truth. and it is no different in upper class bangkok, it just does not seem so behind that appearance of modernity. last year i have had a conflict with some upper middle class family. they even went so far to pay not only the local police station to get me arrested, but even the immigration to have me removed from the country. what helped me was, that 1) i have a semi official position 2) my peer group here in bangkok (nasty people if you aggrevate them) made an appearance 3) most important - my missus was fully behind me, and that means that her clan was behind me (and that clan, for extreme cases, has members who have murdered for honor and revenge before) result was that the conflict was left open, i am still here. now, back to jjsushi - if he decides to support one side, the other side will hate him with a vengeance. but if he supports one side, how much insurance does he have, how far would the protection go? would he be seen as an easy symbolic target as he has no clan affiliation? would the other side try to set an example with him, an example which does not need his supported side to fully get committed as he has no clan support? like a face saving dog kicking? it all dandy when there is piece and happiness, but when the thunder comes - it gets very political... ...and a farang without thai family playing around the social game is in times of conflict in a more than exposed position. i don't fuck around with the upper classes here, other than very superficial professional involvements. i don't want to have to draw in an eventual conflict my family here in a conflict they have slim chances to survive. that would not be responsible. if one wants to play upper class games here, one better gets an upper class family support via marriage. you don't like it? tough luck - that is thailand. get used to it. 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shygye Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Ignore this clash. That is what Thais do with any unpleasantness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lazyphil Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 <<someone may accuse me as being "mr. doom and gloom", but that is the way how many social conflicts end here in thailand even in the very high echeleons of society. just read the news...>> These clanite hiso's are a bit less gung ho when tourists/students I've see round my parts, cant command an ounce of respect they do in LOS, brings them down to earth for a few weeks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 clanism has nothing to do with hiso or loso - that goes through all classes in thailand. tradition and a matter of survival. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasmine Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 [color:"red"] think if these women have any class and the maturity of their age, they will not impose on you to get involved in their private disputes, and also, not ask you to take sides or expect you to. [/color] Sorry mon ami, you are wrong. It is actually worse than you can imagine Believe me, most of these women are used to "getting their way". When my friends are fighting with each other, I just stand there, no involvement from me. Jasmine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sukhumvit Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Jasmine, the least you could do when they fight is offer to hold their coats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Hippie Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 I'll chime in a bit here with what I noticed at "a certain Thai Wat near my apartment." Basically, one woman (the wife of a well known Thai restauranteer) is queen bee. She even bosses the monks around! Many of the other "temple women" and "temple goers" are scared shitless of her, no idea why, not sure she is really in any power position outside the temple. I think the main fear is being ostricized, or "kicked out" of the inner circle, loss of face, etc... This woman, and her husband always get their way...no idea why the others kiss their ass so much. One of the reasons I left there, and study elsewhere... On a separate but related note, my adopted mom is a mix of East european/Eur asian back ground, in her social/ethnic circle, the women are pretty damned petty and catty (or is it caddy?) with one another behind their backs...same I noticed when I lived in a predominately W.A.S.P. community on the east coast...pettiness like I never saw among the women, not speaking beacuse one wore the same dress as the other one (oh the terrible social fopah) like how the hell is one supposed to know what the other is wearing..? or a argument and bitterness over who one a tennis match or a golf game, nasty...Really, I think it is just women in general... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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