Guest lazyphil Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 <<We are all equal here>> Fucking kumbayfuckingya my lord! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Figjam, I'm in a bad mood tonight..Things are not going well lately. I don't mean to yell at you. Sorry. I cannot bring my tirak here for another few months, and I'm pissed. I'm just screaming at anyone who gets in my way. I do disagree with your stance, but appologize for my reaction. ok? You are very entiteled to your stance, as flawed as it might be. Please accept my appology. I'm not having a good day today. OK? HT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Please accept my appology. OK? HT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 NERVOUS_DOG wrote [color:"red"] "MM - what you been drinking?" [/color] I think that was in reference to my statement [color:"red"] "Another problem is people who speak out against the US may end up on one of there shit list. Right now, the US has at least 3 shit list that are used to intimidate people. The worst list is the no-fly list. If a person gets on this list, they can not return to the US. And being they are on the no-fly list, I would assume going to the US embassy would be a waste of time and if they should go there any ways, they might get arrested!" [/color] This site should provide some insight as to what is going on in the US which may prevent some citizens from returning from over seas http://www.fcw.com/fcw/articles/2004/1101/web-nofly-11-04-04.asp This is from the FCW (Federal Computer Week). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FIGJAM Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 HIGH THAIED, no prob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinkas Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 HIGH THAIED said:If I travel, and run into trouble in another country, and need help, I should be able to expect my embassy there, to bend over backwards to address my problem. If they don't, then they are not doing their freaking job. Period. What problems are you talking about here? A dispute with your hotel/travel agent? Disagreement about the price of something at a bar/restaurant? Or do you mean something more serious like, being robbed? HIGH THAIED said:If I'm arrested in Thailand for selling drugs, should I expect a free ticket out of there? Of course not. I understand that they cannot control Thai law. But I do expect them to look at the situation, and if seems erroneous, to do everything in their power, to do what they can. When you say look at the situation? Do you mean investigate? If the local authorities have obtained a warrant and the arrested foreigner has been remanded in custody, would an investigation not be seen as inferering in the domestic matters of that country (which is not allowed under the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations)? If on the other hand you are saying that if it seems that a foreigner has been arrested on a trumped-up/politicially motivated charge that the Embassy should look into it? Yes, that happens in a few cases. In some cases, representations are made to the Thai Foreign Ministry. This is about as far as an embassy can go. This can only be done when there is very strong evidence supporting what the person is saying. International law constrains what an embassy can do, at best the embassy can make discreet enquiries. Not everyone who claims they are innocent will be innocent. If you have broken some obscure Thai law which is really enforced, you have still broken the law. Your embassy cannot get you off the charges. This is why there is a judicial system. Its job is to decide who is guilty. If you want the safety of your home country's judicial system, then you need to stay home. HIGH THAIED said:No way around it. US embassy becomes aware of a US citizen in their jurisdiction, who has lost the plot, destitute, hurt, abused, murdered, kidnapped....whatever. It should be a priority #1 with them, to investigate, and coordinate a plan of action with the corresponding government in power, to solve the problem. For someone who is murdered and kidnapped, I agree that the embassy should take a strong interest and most embassies do. I take it that when you say "abused" you are referring to sexual /child abuse, again embassies do take an interest. But for these three situations (murder, kidnapping, and abuse) they are not your everyday case. They do not happen that often. Someone who has lost the plot is hard to identify. Heavens above, if you take it to one extreme you could identify dozens of posters just by reading the "relationships" forum. Not everyone who is acting a bit strange or is in difficulty wants help. Generally, an embassy cannot force one of its nationals home against its will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinkas Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 FIGJAM said:So, after having already shown the official websites of those embassies and the services they must provide by law to their citizens (which was the point I was making) I have of course to invest my time and my money to study and investigate the whole UK and US legislations in order to report to you the laws, norms and regulations concerning UK and US embassies, their mission, their services and their legal modus operandi... There is a big difference between services (rights ?) that must be provided by law and a list of services that an embassy provides. You seemed to be suggesting there was a domestic law stating that the embassy must provide certain services and they were not complying with these obligations. So forget looking for those laws then. I'm still a bit lost by what you are saying, but I understand you mean, for the UK, they are not providing the following "law" (service) to their citizens: - As a last resort, in exceptional circumstances, and as long as you meet certain strict rules, give you a loan to get you back to the UK, but only if there is no-one else who can help you. I suggest you read this carefully, note the qualifiers 'in exceptional circumstances' and 'certain strict rules'. They don't give money to everyone, they have strict rules. When have they not followed this? Unless you know the rules, you won't know. For the US, well you have completely lost me here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 thanks for your patient and thorough explanations about the constraints of embassies. i learned a lot in this thread i have not known before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FIGJAM Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 dinkas said:There is a big difference between services (rights ?) that must be provided by law and a list of services that an embassy provides. You seemed to be suggesting there was a domestic law stating that the embassy must provide certain services and they were not complying with these obligations. So forget looking for those laws then. Am I in a candid camera or what? :: What's so difficult to understand here? Italian embassies operate according to the Italian laws which specify what they must do and how they must do it. Italian embassies' officials don't pay your ticket home out of their pockets but they, under certain conditions defined by Italian laws, lend you government money to get back to the mother country (Italy) since it is in your rights as an Italian citizen. UK embassies operate according to the British laws which specify what they must do and how they must do it. British embassies' officials don't pay your ticket home out of their pockets but they, under certain conditions defined by British laws, lend you government money to get back to the mother country (UK) since it is in your rights as a British citizen. US embassies operate according to the American laws which specify what they must do and how they must do it. American embassies' officials don't pay your ticket home out of their pockets but they, under certain conditions defined by American laws, lend you government money to get back to the mother country (USA) since it is in your rights as an American citizen. I'm still a bit lost by what you are saying, but I understand you mean, for the UK, they are not providing the following "law" (service) to their citizens: - As a last resort, in exceptional circumstances, and as long as you meet certain strict rules, give you a loan to get you back to the UK, but only if there is no-one else who can help you. I've never said UK embassies are not complying with the law and are not providing the help they must give to their citizens, others have said so. And some others have given examples of them performing their duty, when "pressured" to do so. The explanation I have given of the need for them to be "pressured" to duly perform their duties is that usually embassies the world over are full of scumbags who take advantage of their special status and of people's ignorance of their own rights to just enjoy their wages, benefits, lifestyle and do very little in return. I suggest you read this carefully, note the qualifiers 'in exceptional circumstances' and 'certain strict rules'. They don't give money to everyone, they have strict rules. When have they not followed this? Unless you know the rules, you won't know. I perfectly know the rules under which MY OWN EMBASSY must operate BY LAW and they, BTW, would cover the case of that bloke we are talking about in this thread, if he were Italian (his do seem "exceptional circumstances" and the "strict rules" fundamentally are that he has absolutely no money and no one else to ask for it). I supposed other western countries such as the UK and USA had similar laws and granted similar rights to their citizens and I have proven myself right. Now it seems that you (and HT) want me to do lawyer's work for free and find out for you what exactly are those requirements you have to meet to be granted a ticket back home in the UK and US cases... WTF? I have provided evidence that also in the UK and US cases you basically have the right to be granted a ticket home if you meet similar requirements to those requested by the Italian laws (and that was the point I wanted to make, replying to suadum) and you have not been arsed to even call your embassies to find out the exact requirements in your respective cases but instead are asking me to do so (making a lot of fuss in the process, to boot). For the US, well you have completely lost me here. It's even easier here, I have provided you a tel number: dial (202)647-5225 to find out exactly what requirements you have to meet to be eligible for the other financial assistence available from the govt to those who, as the US embassy says, "have no family or friends able to provide financial assistance". They specifically say that "U.S. citizens destitute abroad in need of help should contact the nearest U.S. embassy or consulate or the U.S. Department of State, Overseas Citizens Services , Office of American Citizen Services and Crisis Management". Asking me to make even that call for you and to report here seems a bit, may I dare to say it, over the top to me (especially since I don't want to then have to call all the other NP members' own embassies as well...). I have made that "call" to MY OWN embassy and that's why I know what I am talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Hi, Here's the deal. Should it not be best to get a citizen back home, who has lost his/her way, due to just about any reason? Granted...if they want to go their own way, and break laws in another country, then they must deal with that, on their own. But someone who has lost the plot, and just needs help? We are talking about the guy on Suk soi 19 here. Do you think the Thai government wants this problem? Do you think is promoting good relations with a host country, for the embassy to just close it's doors to his problem. He *is* their problem, whether they like it or not. He is also their responsibility, whether they like it, or not. For his home-country embassy to give him a $5.00 phone card, and then tell him to fuck-off, does just not cut it. Embassies are there, to promote good relations with the corresponding host country. By not taking responsibility of it's own citizens there, is outrageous. Dumping this guy on the Thai government, and by proxy, telling them that he is now their problem, is simply not doing their job. End of story. We can spend $6 million a day, to ensure some obscure country has a right to vote for their own leaders, but are perfectly willing to leave a naturally born citizen of our own, sleeping in the gutter in BKK? Jesus Christ! Somebody needs to get their head out of their ass. Where in the hell have our priorities gone? The guy on Suk soi 19 needs help. What is wrong with the system, that he is not getting any? The answer is simple. His countries embassy is closing their doors on him, and dumping the problem, at the Thai peoples feet. They don't need this, anymore than anyone else. It's gotten out of control, when any embassy is not willing to take full responsibility of it's own citizens, and do everything possible to give assistance, where needed. A plane ride home is too expensive for them to bear? My God. But yet, is ok to spend 10's of $millions every single day, to help people in some far distant lands. I just think it's time to look in the mirror. If a foreign embassy cannot be arsed to give assistance to one of it's own citizens, then it's time to look again. Then fire them all, and then build again from scratch, putting priorities in order. But as we all know, that won't happen. Sorry, farang guy on soi 19. You're fucked. HT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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