Farang on Suk Soi 19 on his last legs

[Long Gun]

Lusty said:

My GF who comes from Bangkok reckons that alot of the beggers are brought in by the mafia from Cambodia and a provicient one working around Victory Monument can rake in 2000bht a day!

 

Could be right, it's lucrative territory. There is one young guy who I would hardly call proficient, I think he's blind but he basically bangs two sticks together without any kind of rhythm and wails horribly (maybe he's also deaf?) and he seems to get on quite well!

[dinkas]

flyonzewall said:

...and the same thing would have happened that happens to almost every destitute farang here who looks for help in the embassies: he would have been kicked out.

 

i brought once a mentally disturbed farang to the embassy only to be kicked out and having to negotiate with the police to send him to a mental hospital instead of prison.

i even had to telephone his parents after he was medicated and able to speak coherently. only then the embassy was forced to do something due to pressure of his parents.

 

that was only a few weeks after another bloke with mental problems was sent away from the same embassy, only to throw himself off a building, ended up paralysed.

 

or the famous case a decade ago where a brit was arrested in kaosarn rd. with injection needles. the british embassy did not bother to come down to see him even though called up, and the poor bloke died of diabetic shock in jail.

 

...or the bloke in the IDC (immigration detention centre) who handed me a letter asking someone from the embassy to visit him urgently. nobody came, and he had a heart attack in jail, was sent to hospital for two days, and back to the IDC. nobody of the embassy found it worthwhile to see him.

 

etc....

 

 

 

if you have a problem, then embassies are the last place one should go.

 

when i was destitute once i was lucky that it happened in a country with only a honorary consulat of my country, and i was given great help.

 

That is not correct, not every embassy kicks out destitute farangs. I cannot dispute what you say happened in the cases you mentioned as you were there and I was not. But you are implying this happens eveytime. It doesn't. I worked out a western embassy in bangkok and we never kicked out someone because they were destitute. Two people were asked to leave once as they verbally abusive for a sustained period of time, but they weren't destitute. This does not mean that every person who asked for money was given money, they weren't, but it does not mean we kick out these people.

 

At the embassy I worked for, there is no separate government fund for handouts/money to be loaned to our nationals who were overseas who find themselves without money. This is government policy, not an embassy policy. If you don't like it tell your government and get them to change it. I will point out to you though most governments are not going to be in a hurry to change their policy as I can think of one instance where financial assistance was provided to one of our nationals, this person's story made the headlines back home and it was mentioned in at least one newspaper article that the government had provided some financial assistance to the person. I can tell you that the vast majority of the correspondence that the foreign ministry received about this was negative with people saying something alone the lines 'we don't want our tax dollars spent on such people'.

 

If one of our nationals was desitute and wanted money, there would need to be a good reason to give them money. However, we would be happy to get in contact with family members/friends for them to get money transferred through Western Union/alternative service. If due to the time difference money could not be transferred that day, we would look at giving some money to tide them over to the next day. If the person does not know anyone who would transfer them money, we could arrange for them to stay at a shelter (there is only one in Bangkok that I am aware of and they said they would accept nationals from our country by referral). You would be surprised on how many people can suddenly think of friends/family members who might lend them money when money from the embassy is not forthcoming.

 

If you are robbed, have travel insurance, and are destitute, the insurance company can advance a small amount of money to you quickly. I can think of numerous cases where this has happened, obviously it depends on your travel insurane company, but it does and can happen. I note that Thalenoi says above his policy makes it a requirement he contacts the embassy first, I don't understand that to mean they will not pay out. Maybe they want to coordinate payment of the passport directly with the embassy so they know that the money is going towards payment of the passport. While not everyone has travel insurance that is their choice (given the cost of the plane ticket and other expenses, I do see this as a choice).

 

I have not heard about the case about the Brit on Khao San Road who was arrested so I am going on your comments alone. Shouldn't the Thai Police bear some responsibility here as they were in their custody? If he went into diabetic shock, why didn't the police do something about it? You seem to be lumping all the blame on the embassy. I am not saying that what the embassy did was the correct thing to do, but without knowing all the details I am not sure they could have done anything in this case. I would be interested if you have a link to the story otherwise all I can do is speculate.

 

Did the person who was in IDC mention why the embassy staff member should visit them urgently? While we treated the first request by one our nationals in IDC or in prison for us to visit them urgently as really an 'urgent matter', I cannot think of one situation where there was anything really urgent. They were always false alarms. A visit to IDC would take me away from the embassy for at least 2 hours and this would take time away from dealing with people with real problems. I don't quite understand how an embassy staff member could have prevented this person's heart attack. Heart attacks are not always predictable (ok, if the guy was on medication and didn't have his medication with him, then something should be done to try to rectify that, but that is the only thing I can think of).

 

People with psychiatric problems these are easily the most difficult cases I dealt with. I should point out that I applaud your efforts to help anyone in this situation. However, there are a number of constraints placed on an embassy on what they can do

 

You can never be sure how to deal with a person with psychiatric problems. Sometimes they can turn violent and (in my experience) this can certainly happen if the psychotic episode is drug-induced. Only once was I forced into a situation to bring a person with psychiatric problems to the embassy. While at the embassy he became violient and had to be phsycially restrained by 3 people. This is likely to be one reason why the embassy you refer to did not want the person there, there is an issue of safety not only for staff members but also anyone who is in the embassy.

 

Getting medical treatment for people with psychiatric problems is the best solution, but it is not always just as easy as arriving at a hospital and getting the person admitted/committed.

 

1. Thai public hospitals are generally reluctant to take foreign psychiatric patients and there are only a couple of private hospitals that will take them. Generally, private hospitals will only then admit the person on the proviso that there is a financial guarantor (if not at the time at being admitted, then definitely within 24 hours). Most governments do not provide any funding to pay for the hospital costs of their nationals abroad. I could not say that the Embassy would guarantee payment. The family would have to provide funding to pay for the care that is the only option.

 

2. How do you get someone to a psychiatric hospital? What happens if they don't want to go? As I am not a psychiatrist, I cannot make an assessment that someone needs to be admitted to a psychiatric hospital. While, yes, I can observe their behaviour and believe that they might have a psychiatric problem, that is a different situation from a trained expert making a proper assessment. It would be great if at the Embassy we had a trained psychiatrist as a staff member who could then make an assessment, but we didn't. Surely, you are not suggesting that lay persons at an embassy should have the ability to get one of their nationals committed to a pshyciatric hospital? On what authority, can an embassy staff member do this.

 

Finally, while your embassy is unlikely to be help you in every situation, if you are destitute they can provide some assistance.

[Guest]

i do understand the constraints embassies have. and i do also not really want to go into a rant against embassies, that would be useless.

 

what i have tried to suggest many times, since years, i will repeat here. maybe it might be an idea you in your position might find worthwhile, and inspiring.

 

we all know that in thailand many westerners lose the plot, for whatever reason, and are a lot of trouble for both the thai authorities and the embassies.

why don't the main embassies, and some NGO get together, pool some funds, and found an organisation specifically for those sort of cases. working together with thai authorities.

as you mentioned - there is only one shelter which takes destitute westerners. or your problems to get people in a psychiatric hospital, which would be easy to solve - call the por teck tueng or the ruamkatanyu.

an organisation working both with thai authorities and embassies could do a lot to prevent the worst in many cases. things that could be done:

get westerners who lost the plot out of the country unbrocratically and fast.

give them shelter until they get back on their feet.

get them medical help if needed, and legal help.

etc.

 

 

problem is that there are countless organisations for all sort of problems here in thailand, but none that deal with destitute westerners who lost the plot.

[Guest]

Good ideas dinkas and fly, looks like both of you are brainstorming!

 

There are some points mentioned you might want to take up with KS.

 

I would think it would be great if there was a section at this site where people could turn to for help. The idea of even knowing there is a shelter is great but I would like to know where it is.

 

Pooling resourses together to provide aid for ex-pats is a novel idea.

 

Instead of some of us becoming embarrassments, we could show our host country that we really do care for our 'own' and that we are not as 'bad' as some might perceive us to be.

[Lusty]

BB says:"All,

So we have a thread here about one farang begging in BKK.

What happened to him ? his choice to beg or not ?

Mentally still aware enough to beg, so he must know he has other options, right"

The original post never said the guy was begging but he was "half comatosed".A proper beggar would never leave 100bht notes lying around.

[gummigut]

"why don't the main embassies, and some NGO get together, pool some funds, and found an organisation specifically for those sort of cases."

 

Thats a black hole. I don't see how this is different from welfare. Thailand collects these type of people and it would be an endless black hole.

 

I do believe such a fund would definitely help a few who would actually use the opportunity but on the whole it's a losing proposition. At what point do you draw the line? I believe gov't is supposed to guarantee people a level playing field and not to bail people out.

 

Much prefer Hong Kong's structure of don't work don't eat.

 

<<burp>>

[thalenoi]

I am truly shocked by the lack of compassion demonstrated by some on this board and that is in opposition with the solidarity showed by the tsunami where billions of dollars are given to no-one-knows-who, in the first place paying the companies making the goods, the transport companies, feeding the thiefs etc...

 

Whilst helping an individual in need is seen as the devil in disguise under the motto "he did it to himself" or it's because of the maffia exploiting the poor bastard.

Sure the cops are doing their job?

 

I met and helped some people in dire need at huge expenses and with sad end-results. It still was worth it, brightening someones days...

 

Don't work, don't eat he...

[Pom_Jao_Choo]

I wish no ill luck on those who've run into tough situations on their journeys, but...

Maybe western countries should follow the Thai lead and simply demand that exit visas would only be permited when proof has been made that they can care for themselves.

Please understand that I am likely in the bottom %20 of income earners on this board. And lots of aquaintances question me as to why I feel I need to have tens of thousands for a vacation and then still more left at home.

Travelling is at some point is a privellage, and people need to consider back up plans even if their as simple as getting insurance.

[Guest]

>>>Much prefer Hong Kong's structure of don't work don't eat.<<<

 

 

no wonder that in hong kong another time honored institution is very strong - the triads.

what about the unemployed? shall we let them starve to death?

 

 

 

 

>>>Thats a black hole. I don't see how this is different from welfare. Thailand collects these type of people and it would be an endless black hole.<<<

 

of course it is welfare. what is so bad about it?

and i do not see that as a "black hole", as long as such a fund/NGO/organisation is properly managed and staffed with skilled and experienced people.

there are NGO's for every dick and harry around, billions are spent, why not a single one for westerners who lost the plot?

 

i don't understand the point of "drawing the line". like in every welfare organisation - on a case by case base decided by experienced staff.

 

 

yes, thailand does collect those people. we have already identified the problem. so what are we gonna do about it?

and those people are a far bigger burden to society by doing nothing.

 

 

>>>I believe gov't is supposed to guarantee people a level playing field and not to bail people out.<<<

 

 

there never was a "level playing field", never will be. some people simply are not equipped to compete in modern society, cannot fulfill its demands.

so, our repsonsibility, based on our morals, ethics and whatever, is to support the weaker links, the victims.

 

 

but maybe the fundamental problem here is that i do measure a society by its capacity for compassion (which somehow complies with the morals set by our religions and philosophies), and not just by its productivity.

[dinkas]

While I believe the organisation you are talking about setting up would be desireable and would provide some level of a safety net, I believe the devil will be in the details. The only way I can see such an organsition coming into being is if a new or existing NGO expanded its activities and asked for funding from different embassies. Thus, providing a clear separation from the embassy although still a close link, ie like the British Prisoner's Abroad.

 

There would also be a question of, does the organisation only accept nationals from embassies who provide funding? If not, how would they balance the large number of 3rd world nationals (whose embassies are unlikely to provide much funding) in comparision to nationals from developed countries?

 

I do like your suggestion though.