Guest Posted January 20, 2005 Report Share Posted January 20, 2005 Bibblies, I read you clearly, even the deleted post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uthai Posted January 20, 2005 Report Share Posted January 20, 2005 Soongmak Quote: ___________________________________________________ Who will ever know? You? Me? We simply don't know. That doesn't mean that every girl in Cambodia is indentured. ___________________________________________________ Exactly what I believe, not ever girl is indentured?? Soongmak Quote: ___________________________________________________ The fact that Ranger took his girls LT speaks volumes for me. If they were really indentured, they wouldn't be allowed to leave the premises IMO ___________________________________________________ Even Ranger acknowledges that probably some of the girls were indentured when he said, ?I suppose that some of the girls might be working off a debt?. I didn?t get the feeling after reading his post that he was dismayed at the possibility that some of the girls sucking him off may have been indentured. Soongmak Quote: ___________________________________________________ To think that prostitution is a 'clean' business, is immensely naive. Bad things happen everywhere, and it is not confined to Cambodia, ___________________________________________________ Couldn?t agree with you more,even in western countries there are girls that are indentured prostitutes. My point is simply that there?s a higher percentage of prostitutes in Cambodia that are indentured and even an experienced punter such as Ranger has a hard time being able to discern if the girl is indentured or not. That being the case I don?t think that trip reports about Cambodia should be allowed that describe sexual exploits in any of the Brothels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bibblies Posted January 20, 2005 Report Share Posted January 20, 2005 kamui said:Bibblies, talking about substance in posts: we all know that you don't like Fly, why don't just keep your mouth shut. As far as I can see you did not add any other content to this thread. I don't dislike him at all. In fact, I appreciate the robustness of his banter and good-natured PMs usually go between us when we get warned about language, flaming, etc, on the main board. But he tends to whine a bit to the referee about things he does himself when I think both participants are fully--grown men who should take it on the chin. As for content, I mentioned my own experiences of Cambodia. I remember telling you the same thing when you asked for advice before your first trip some time ago but you declined to see for yourself (perhaps influenced by the mass of reports you'd seen previously like this one in the New York Times). This is starting to remind me of Platoon - the men who love the idealistic Elias (Fly) versus the realistic Barnes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamui Posted January 20, 2005 Report Share Posted January 20, 2005 Hi Bibblies, actually I went to one place, Sharky's, you mentioned last summer , the other place, Martinis, was closed. I had a lot of fun with the freelancers in PP and I don't think that I missed something, because I didn't went to any brothels, where it seems that some girls are not free to leave their job. I cannot switch off my "Western morals" when going to Cambodia as it was adviced on another board to me. Concerning mass media. What I have learnt in the last months concerning P4P in Cambodia that different people/institutions have very different realities of P4P. While some punters flatly deny the existance of underage, intendured prostitution in Cambodia, international media and *some* NGO's don't differentiate between adult prostition by freelancers and the rest. I just try to find my way through this different perceptions of P4P realitiy in Cambodia and find this very difficult. Probably the only way is to learn Khmer and to meet more people in Cambodia to learn more. In contrast to P4P in Thailand the internet does not give me reliable and detailed informaton, since all views are extremely biased. PS: Anyway, even I have been offered underage girls in PP by my motodriver. Afterwards I dumped him and choose another driver for the next days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bibblies Posted January 20, 2005 Report Share Posted January 20, 2005 My other 'content' was mentioning that other famous girls featured in Nigel's videos seemed to be 'free' and have been seen out and about (in Martinis and even in Emporium, Bangkok). I've even heard that one is now pretty rich by Vietnamese standards and has all the house, etc, paid for. As cooler heads have pointed out, it's not so different from Thailand - the Vietnamese aren't starving but just want more mod-cons. The real pity, as in Isaan, isn't that girls are having sex for money with sweaty older men, but they didn't get much of a chance compared to lucky old us with our pretty decent education. I don't think frequenting brothels makes much of a difference to this. Yes, you can be offered underage girls in Cambodia and I wish NGOs luck in shutting this down. But if you say 'No' then how are you contributing to that problem? To me and (I think) the rest of us on this board, it seems alien - more a function of what Asian men might seek (like eating Tiger's penis for virility or Shark Fins). So it was there before and will be there whether foreigners go to Cambodia or not. As for fly, he'll calm down sooner or later. Everyone gets emotional every now and then and he's just been in Phuket so it's understandable but this is only talk on an Internet board, nothing special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamui Posted January 20, 2005 Report Share Posted January 20, 2005 *You* say that scene is not much different from Thailand. If have heard completely different opinions in the last the months. *That* is my problem. You can call me overcautious, but as long as I am not sure (from my available sources) about a place I just will not go there. It is that easy. Some hardcore punters might call me a wimp, but I can live with that. By the way, P4P is not the main reason I went to Cambodia two times.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bibblies Posted January 20, 2005 Report Share Posted January 20, 2005 One thing different from Thailand I noticed (and isn't often mentioned here) was the increased air of danger apparent whenever Cambodian or Chinese men came into the same karaoke bar or brothel. Girls and moto-drivers would become very concerned and try to hide you away. There is definitely more overt antagonism from this type of Cambodian men towards foreigners than anything I've known from Thais. However, Cambodians in general seemed a lot more pleased to see tourists than the now tired Thais and I felt sorry that they didn't get more visitors (probably because of newspapers' sensationalist concentration on sex and violence). Angkor Wat pisses on anything that Thailand has yet it gets a fraction of the visitors to The Grand Palace. Most Cambodians I met were begging me to tell everyone I knew to visit their country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaad Posted January 20, 2005 Report Share Posted January 20, 2005 I can't believe you guys. If anyone on this board was the king of flaming it was Fly. Although I liked his post on the board, he was way overboard here IMO. He dragged Coss into the discussion and insinuated out of the blue that he was advertising low end prostitution and brothels. When Coss asked him for an apology, he just ignored him, to start whining on later on about abuse from coss. Talk about the pot and the kettle. Totally preposterous! Nanaplaza is a discussion board, and to let one person decide that sex in Cambodia is not to be discussed, based on a single 5 week visit from 4-5 years ago is idiotic. We don't need every poster who posts a trip report report on cambodia being harassed. unless there is proof that the poster used the service of underaged girls or indentured prostitutes, he doesn't deserve any criticism. You want to worry about indentured prostitutes? you might as well start worrying about any in-house service you may use in thailand, even high-end massage parlors. Like Suadum says, as long as a girl is free to stay with you overnight , it is highly unlikely that she's indentured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jitagawn Posted January 20, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2005 "My take on "indentured" prostitutes is that if they are freelancing or willing/able to go long time, then they are 99.99% likely to me doing so of their own free will." Please pemit me to questionthis stance. I believe that is a naieve and drastic over simplification of reality. IMHO and observations of some almost 15 years of travel in Cambodia the ability to go long time is not dependent upon whether the girl is indentured. I am very very certain of this.Thank-you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaad Posted January 20, 2005 Report Share Posted January 20, 2005 Fly, now, look and who is most active in attacking my point of view right here Why don't you just skip looking at boardnames and read the content of said posters for once. Don't think or assume too much, Fly, just read what they have to say, digest their words and THEN speak. And if not in agreement then comment on THAT rather than the fact that you think there's some sort of conspiracy going on here against you which I think is a COMPLETE JOKE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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