The end of sanuk?

[jagoturner]

Sorry to skip back to the beginning a bit but I've just been reading this thread and enjoying it. I recently (well not that recently) got into a thread at The Nation's discussion board and got into correspondance with a middle class Thai lady about prostitution in Thailand.

I can't comment with any authority or accuracy on the economic realities affecting Thai people but as a result of this correspondance and meetings with well off Thais in the UK I do understand why there might be larger forces than economics involved here.

At the moment Thailand is a country and a culture stepping up the ladder of respectability. At the time I first became aware of Thailand the towns of the UK were not filled with Thai restaurants and Thai goods had no particular marquee value. The average guy in the street probably thought it was still called Siam.

Now despite having real social problems, poverty and illiteracy Thailand is starting to be a country that has a respected culture and Thais, about the most nationally proud people you can meet, find the idea that some still view it as a brothel very upsetting. Beyond upsetting. They see it as a national embarrassment.

From what I understand the existence of prostitution is not what bothers them. It is the profile it has.

I got into a friendly quarrel pointing out that the option of work in a bar was perhaps the only real chance women born into poverty had to better themselves.

The response was that by "bettering themselves" financially they were ruining themselves and their country.

The truth is I don't think the average Thai would give a monkey's if tourists were slipping away, going to brothels and massage parlours and not announcing the fact. What causes the problem is the very obvious and high profile nature of the sex industry. This is what has endured crackdown after crackdown. And though the lady I communicated with this on the most never said as much, I got the impression that the real issue was a matter of face and reputation. If Thaksin closed down Nana Plaza it would probably improve his standing with middle class Thais. It would be great public relations for him.

Of course, while no-one is likely to publicly admit it, I think such an action taken would damage the Thai economy in subtle ways not naturally connected to the tourist industry. Why would a Western business choose to invest it's resources in Thailand when those resources might be better spent in one of the republics of the former Soviet Union ? Perhaps the fact Thailand is a nicer place to visit has an economic impact in many ways, and that face losing bar scene does kind of make Thailand a nicer place for a good deal of businessmen and investors.

Of course I'm just guessing. I'm sure large company executives would never go to the Nana...

[kohchaiBKK]

I pretty much agree with the above post. Thailand had some golden opportunities about 10 years back to become the 5th tiger. They failed miserably, and it was not because of anything related to sanuk. IMHO, the national pride Khun Turner referred to has held them back far more than the reputation for Sanuk.

I passed by Nana plaza this evening at around 1:20 AM. The place was closed tight and the area was inundated with police. They'll never kill sanuk, but they sure are making it tough on farangs. I'm only on this board right now because I thought I might read about whats going on.

[Guest]

Guys,

sorry to hi-jack this thread once more.......

quote:

---

Originally posted by pattaya127:

it is true that many times the feeling you get from people staying in in LOS or neighbouting countries sounds a bit like: "me expat, you tourist!", or even "me NGO worker, you sex tourist

---

True.. ! And I'm also not really finger pointing but this attitude you mentioned does irritate me somewhat. Some people will continue to think that they see a Thailand that they think others can't see, like it's some kind of private secret retained for only those ex-pats who are 'in the know'. A big toss if you ask me. You meet these people out and about too - a rather droll lot who are often reluctant to socialise outside their clique because you may be a tourist, not know the score, can't really understand the girls and don't really know what it's all about.

As for this board, I see it as a place to share information (and stories) and not to be used as a personal forum telling us all 'how it is'. Too many opinionated and condescending attitudes for my liking at times I'm sorry to say. Arguments can be great if they are informative and well supported, and don't get me wrong, there ARE many very intelligent and informative postings here at times. Personal opinions are also great, I love to know what others think. It's only when the opinions are disguised as knowledge and fact that I get a bit disheartened. Well, maybe it's just me, but I've noticed that there also appears to be a cliqu'ishness of folk about this board that a few too many people hold a bit too revered and will treat as gospel. Too many professors and not enough students I think!

It doesn't hurt to question the 'professors' once in a while. I'm not everyone, but I know I will always be a student to the Thai way.

Dan

================================

p.s. What is the topic of this thread again??

[kohchaiBKK]

Dan'

I enjoy the hell out of this board, but there sure are no experts here. Everyone who thinks there are will eventually learn for himself that they're wrong. They'll learn it in their own time. If there is a "professor" here, I wish you'd point him out to me. I can't see him through all the Gilligans. Its the Gilligans that keep me coming back, though. I sure as hell know I'm no expert. Everytime I figure out where its at, somebody goes and moves it.

Lighten up and enjoy the show.

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by kohchaiBKK:

I passed by Nana plaza this evening at around 1:20 AM. The place was closed tight and the area was inundated with police. They'll never kill sanuk..

---

They are sure trying.

A fellow in my apartment block here who's been here for 20 years tells me that in his time he has never seen such a crackdown of this magnitude. Sure, there's been one every year about this time (just before the tourist season) but never as sustained or severe as this. Taksin is wielding an iron fist to gain popularity for sure it appears. Sweeping it all under the mat and trying, or seemingly convincing everyone to believe that he is the One, the one who will save Thailand from a tainted image.

Will it hurt the economy if there was no Nana and sanuk venues? I really have no idea, though it would be interesting to know what percentage of tourist money is sanuk related. It's really unfathomable to try and think what amount of foreign money the average tourist/businessman sanuk spends; drinks, transport, accomodation etc., and you could probably multiply this twice by what he puts into the girls wallets also..on a daily basis too. You would never spend the same amount of money on Mexican souveniours that's for sure.

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by kohchaiBKK:

Dan'

I enjoy the hell out of this board, but there sure are no experts here. Everyone who thinks there are will eventually learn for himself that they're wrong. They'll learn it in their own time. If there is a "professor" here, I wish you'd point him out to me. I can't see him through all the Gilligans. Its the Gilligans that keep me coming back, though. I sure as hell know I'm no expert. Everytime I figure out where its at, somebody goes and moves it.

Lighten up and enjoy the show.

---

Nice reply Kohchai, appreciate it. Just wanted to point out an irritation.

cheers

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alexander Turner:

The response was that by "bettering themselves" financially they were ruining themselves and their country.

---

very true post alexander,

and that attitude of these people pisses me off endlessly. it just stinks to heaven!

these people think they have the right to enrich themselves by artficially raising the prices of farmland so they can invest and speculate and farmers can't afford to buy land anymore, they invest in all these nice ventures like sawmills so community forests disappear, one of these results are the recent floods in petchabun.

so as a direct result of the lack of social conscience of these cultured thais the poor are forced to take matters into their own hands, and now these people won't even allow that after all they did to this country and these people.

i admire you for being able to have a friendly discussion with such a person, i would not be able to.

today i had a great conversation with a taxidriver in his fifties while being stuck in the traffic jam, politics, taksin, communism, the different prime ministers down to fieldmarshal pibunsongkram. his openmindedness and intelligent criticism simply blew me, his ideas of possible solutions for the mess thailand is in now gave me a whole lot to think for the future. one of the rare days where i was actually thankful for bangkok's traffic jams.

[Ranger]

Was in G-spot tonight as the GF wanted to visit her sister. At 1 am, they colleted all the check-bins and at 1:25, the lights came on and within 5 minutes all the girls were dressed and the place was empty! Walked out into a dark NEP and joined the mass exodus. Ran into Santos outside TT and he said the police were enforcing a 1 am closing time and that the bar owners were "nervous" and that they were having a meeting tomorrow afternoon and would be told the "way it was going to be" by the police officials. We walked past a dark and deserted Clinton Plaza and I popped my head into an empty Thermae at 1:45 am. It really wouldn't bother me if they want to close things at 1 am, but I know that some of you like to party on into the wee hours and this may affect your evenings.

Ranger

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dan:

Some people will continue to think that they see a Thailand that they think others can't see, like it's some kind of private secret retained for only those ex-pats who are 'in the know'.

---

dan, what's your point?

when people who seem to know a more than the average tourist because they spent here a long time, accumulated knowledge and post about that, than how is it that they retain that as a private secret?

[btm1735]

Dan says "I really feel you should abstain from it totally if you are having any kind of moral troubles coming to terms with playing in this kind of industry." I think differently, I think if you don't have some moral pangs about the industry then you sould be abstaining. If it is just a bought and paid for thing where do you draw the line. The women involved are real with real feelings of their own. As a group we are better educated, informed and richer than the girls as a group. This gives us a fair amount of power. Power is something to be used carefully and benevolently IMO.

I haven't dealt with the industry in Thailand yet but I have in other places. I have always tended to like women in the industry that are late 20's to early 30's the best. They have already made the decision to enter the life and have come to terms with it. They like the life and are not waiting to move on to a better life or for Prince Charming. This works well for me because not only are they better in the sack they also have realistic expectations.

If you are going with the young girls just off the farm, then I would worry about why they are in the life and would have moral pause. Is the family (mother, father, boyfriend, husband) pressuring her? Is she young and stupid and just wants the flashy life style without knowing about the costs to herself?