The end of sanuk?

[Guest]

Originally posted by shygye:

"I read in the Nation that the police are clearing out girls in and around Siam Hotel. This was a big freelancer scene for Thais."

It is still a big freelancer scene. The police only busted some of the women standing outside on the pavement on several occasions; since then the scene has moved into the coffee shop of the hotel. The police can't possibly arrest women just because they sit at a table and sip soft drinks (even arresting them for standing on the pavement is somewhat dubious - the police released all "arrested" women after payments of 500-1,000 Baht).

There are hundreds of women plying the trade in the coffee shop, but many won't go with farang ("big-big - jep!"). It's very much a Thai scene, with a good sprinkling of Japanese (very popular with the women - big spenders and fast cummers!), but occasionally a farang or two will show up. Not me, of course!

[shamus]

Originally posted by Stickman:

What interests me is what will happen to the farang expats here if in a short space of time, the sex scene (I HATE it when people say sanuk scene when referring to the nightlife) disappeared... It wouldn't bother me too much - and I know some of my firends woudl not be too bothered...but there would be man ywho would be HEARTBROKEN!

Stick

Well l must say this surprise's me, it is my opinion that if you removed the sanuk scene (sorry SEX scene) fron LOS, most lads would pick up and go elsewhere, most likely home.

The reason l think this is so, is ask yourself what brought you here in the first place, holiday? work? passing through? any of these maybe, but what made the place so interesting, culture? thai smile? can make a shitload of money here? l think not! most likely the treament you first recieved from the lovely thai girls, the treament most of the guys here probably dont recieve back home, and l do state here, not all, but most.

So l do say guys, be honest with yourself and would you stay if LOS never had a sanuk scene? (sorry again! SEX SCENE)

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[pattaya127]

quote:

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Originally posted by Scum_Baggio:

Originally posted by chicago dave:

Very true. Thailand's prostitution business, in all its open or hidden avatars, is supposed to be responsible for 12% of Thailand's gross net product. That means that one in every eight Baht that you hold in your hand was created by prostitution. It's a massive business (let's call it "cot industry"!) without which millions of people (the prostitutes and their extended families) would immediately fall into abject poverty, possibly even starvation. As it is, twenty percent or so of people in Isaan are undernourished, so imagine what would happen if ...

There's no other employment for all these women. Even now, an end of the economic crises nowhere near in sight, every day people are losing their jobs; and I think under the wise guidance of Thaksin things will become much worse in the near future.

[ August 13, 2001: Message edited by: Scum_Baggio ]

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OK! Any opinion has value but you guys sometimes come up with percentages and numbers , for which it would be nice you cite your sources or references. At this point, i do not question the validity of your or someone's numbers or statistics, but as they incite discussion, it would be nice to know where they come from. I also think that we heard enough about Thaksin this and Thaksin that from the self-minded farang community (the guy is, in our posts, both "totally" corrupted, and wanting to curb illegal activities or prostitution? Confusing, to say the least). At this point it would be nice to hear it from the horses's mouth, namely thai journalists, academics, civic leaders, and thai people who had a chance to vote him in or out. We can't react to his policies only in relation to what it does or could do to the expat or tourist community. I mean: we are not Thailand. And so, i asked an educated thai friend of mine what was his opinion and he answered me that it's quite understood that Thaksin is moving within a system that has a lot of corruptions, is himself not an angel, but that he can't be in it for the money, being one of the richest men, so that for a change, if he happens to be a smart economist/leader, and not only a corrupted politician, some good could happen to the country, and it's way too soon to know. I add, frankly that in light of the whole country, a few police actions towards some street hookers or the enforcement of closing hours, hardly makes the case one way or the other (bad guy, good or same as before). IMO

[ August 13, 2001: Message edited by: pattaya127 ]

[Guest]

Pattaya 127,

the figure of 12% is an estimate by the academics (Thais) who wrote the book "Girls, Guns, Gambling, Ganja", a study of the underground economy in Thailand. I think it's available at amazon.com.

The figure of 20% undernourished in Isaan was given in various Thai publications last (?) year.

Thaksin not in it for the money? That's naive Thai thinking. They reckon he's very rich, so why amass more. Then how come almost all government advertising contracts lately went to an ad company which belongs to him (ten days or so a 44 million Baht contract, there were others before)? Don't tell me it's sheer coincidence. Thaksin is in a) for self-aggrandisement, because of a massive urge for power, and c) to solidify his substantial fortune. Anybody's who's observed the fellow since he was the leader of Palang Dharma (remember?) cannot be but completely dubious about his intentions. He didn't become the leader of P.D. because he liked their ideals, but because they were the strongest party in Bangkok at the time and it gave him a platform for power. In the process, Mr.T destroyed P.D. He's about to do the same to Thailand.

[ August 13, 2001: Message edited by: Scum_Baggio ]

[Guest]

Scum_Baggio ,

What Khun Pasuk, Khun Sungsidh and Khun Nualnois actuall said in their very excellant book was that they estimated ALL facets of the what they called the Illegal Economy which includes gambling, prostitution, drugs, smuggling, illegal weapons trade and illegal labor trafficking TOGETHER accounted for 8 -13% of the GNP of Thailand. Gambling was the largest industry, Prostitution was second.

The vast part of the Thai sex industry is run by Thais for Thais. The impact of the Farang sex industry on the overall Thai economy was minimal. As an example,less than 2% of all sex workers are employed in GoGo bars. Let's not overate the size of our club or its importance

Further, while I don't think Thaksin is planning it, the Thai economy would actually improve without the Farang sex industry.

I have said this before and apoplgize for repeating myself but more Farnags will dine on soi 24 tonight than will go to NEP, Clinton and Cowboy combined. There are more farangs staying in the luxury hotels along the river than will go to combined bars of NEP, Clinton, Cowboy and Pat Pong tonight. There will be more Farangs shopping outside the bars in Pat Pong tonight than drinking inside.

If you eliminated the Farang sex industry in Thailand you would end the blemish on Tourism that comes from being a sex capital. The small void left by Farang sex tourists would be filled 10 fold by tourists previously unwilling venture to Thailand because of its reputation.

Sad, but true I am afraid. In fact I kind of think we ought to stop talking about this before some high Thai official passes on this idea as his own.

[ August 13, 2001: Message edited by: nepfan ]

[Guest]

nepfan,

the overall figure for the underground economy, unless my memory fails me badly, is 20% according to that book.

No country has ever managed to eradicate prostitution; the exception may (or may not) be present-day Afhghanistan, but I know there is prostitution in Iran, Saudi Arabia, you name it. In Thailand, prostitution has a firm foothold because of deep-rooted cultural reasons: the mia-noi culture, the hedonistic life-style, the craving for easy money etc. Prostitution has been rampant at least since the early 17th century (the earliest foreign records of Thai prostitution hail from that period), and any old Thai man can tell you incredible stories about the number of prostitutes in Bangkok, say, forty of fifty years ago. I have researched the subject well and I could take you on a tour of Old Bangkok and point out where the whore-houses were, and where the women stood in the streets. The particular areas were often so close to each other that one might be forgiven to think that the whole of Bangkok was a whore-house (I know this is an exaggeration, so no flames please).

Today, prostitution has changed its face, as well as its locations. But it's still an economic force to be reckoned with and will be so until Thailand becomes a developed and prosperous country - the chances of which appear very dim for the next decade or two.

[ August 13, 2001: Message edited by: Scum_Baggio ]

[pattaya127]

Thnaks for your inputs, Scum. i am not as concerned about Thaksin as other posters. At some point, it is just that Thailand belongs to thais and it' s none of my business what they do with it. i just stay curious as it's my nature. I agrre still with the last poster, and most likely the tourist sex scene is not a great agenda on his desk. It would be interesting to sum up in a year what has been done about/against it from his police/government, and for now to see if the farang sex scene is an important subject/worry that finds an echo in thai Newspapers, as an evil worth going after, for the love of the country.

[khunsanuk]

Hi,

Shamus asked:

"So l do say guys, be honest with yourself and would you stay if LOS never had a sanuk scene? (sorry again! SEX SCENE)"

Let's see, I live in a really nice house, have a beautiful, loving wife, a good job (for now anyway) and lots of close friends.

Pretty sure none of that will be influenced by the sex scene disappearing.

Sanuk!

[Guest]

I have not read the book,"Girls, Guns, Gambling, Ganja", but coincidentally enough, there is an article reporting similiar findings in today's LA Times. According to the LA Times, the World Health Organization (WHO) estimates: "In Indonesia, Malaysia, the Philippines and Thailand, the sex industry accounts for an estimated 2 percent to 14 percent of the gross domestic product." No breakdown in LA Times article, but the info is consistent with the 12% figure cited above. The article can be found at: www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-asia-aids0813aug1 3.story?coll=la%2Dap%2Dtopnews%2Dheadlines/ Sometimes the LA Times can surprise you.

Now on the subject of Thaksin, I went to a private luncheon regarding business 'issues' in S.E. Asia (they used to use the word 'opportunities' for these luncheons, but not anymore.) Industry and U.S. government reps attended. A private group that tracks 'grease payments' for shipments in and out of Thailand reported that since the change of gov, complaints have doubled from US companies doing business with the LOS. Complaints about improper requests by parties bidding for contracts involving the Thai government have gone up by nearly two-thirds as well.

Its not just Sanukers complaining. Pick up a copy of any reputable financial newspaper or magazine that reports on Asia, such as The Economist, Far Eastern Economic Review, the Asian Wall Street Journal, the Financial Times, and you will see the same complaints and observations.

We live in a global economy. And it is not really a matter of who "owns Thailand" or who "Thailand belongs to" (an odd and somewhat disturbing concept coming from this side of the pond.) It's just bad for business.

I will be real curious to watch - from over here on this side of the pacific - what happens in the LOS over the next year. Actually, I don't have much choice in the matter. I have to watch from over here since I cannot see anyway to line up a business trip now that my company (and everyone else) seems to pulling out of Thailand.

Now as to sanuking itself, not surprisingly, the biggest for currency earner for Thailand is not exports, but tourism, and, speaking as someone looking from the outside in (that is, a potential tourist), I would not underestimate the importance of the sanuk scene's drawing power. Not many of my male friends plan trips to Malaysia. I am confident that if the sanuk scene faded, it would have a strongly negative effect on the economy, and bear in the mind that this is economy that is already on the defensive and likely to stay that way given current policies. Tourism is really the only thing going for Thailand these days; virtually everything else is in sharp decline.

[ August 13, 2001: Message edited by: New Dog on the Block ]

[Guest]

Scum_Baggio , Always enjoy hearing from you...you're highly well informed and that makes it interesting. But in this case, Page 7 of the paperback book, 8-13%. But what do they know, anyway?

I agree they'll never eradicate prostitution in this country. But, they can easily make it difficult for the Farang Bars and discourage Farangs form going to Thai bars.

But, that would throw the economy of Isaan into a spin and then all the poor people who voted for Thaksin might find out he doesn't give two satangs for them, same as the last guys.

But they really don't have any motivation to close the bars right now. Did I just say "they"? I mean the Thaksin government. And they have bigger fish to fry at the moment. Again the article in Far Eastern Economic Review gave a good balanced summary of the hurtles facing Thaksin & Co at the moment.

I agree, safe for quite a while and, by then I'll hopefully have Thai passport.