Stickman this week regarding violence .

[Guest]

This is direct from the Foreign Correspondents Club in Thailand (FCCT) about a talk tonight, and provides a good example of what many expats here and more educated Thais find so infuriating about violence and the criminal justice system in Thailand:

Kirsty Jones, a 23-year old British backpacker, was raped and murdered at a Chiang Mai guesthouse in August, 2000, ... Earlier this month Kirsty?s mother, Sue Jones, came here accompanied by Welsh detectives from the Dyfed-Powys Police Department to urge Thai authorities to do more to find her daughter?s killer, who remains unidentified in spite of a full DNA profile having been developed from semen found at the scene. Many in Chiang Mai have come to believe the criminal is, in fact, known but is being protected for unknown reasons.

 

The initial police investigation was controversial from the start. The crime scene was unsecured; reporters, police officers with no connection to the case and even passers-by were allowed to trample it repeatedly. During a slow period, a Karen tour guide claimed he was kidnapped and tortured by police trying to extract first a confession and then a sperm sample which could be planted where the rape and murder took place. Police finally arrested Andrew Gill, the 32-year old guest house manager, charging him with conspiracy to commit murder,but were later forced to release him after DNA evidence profile proved conclusively an Asian source. It could only have come from an Asian source. For some time after that Chiang Mai police clung to the theory that the real killer had bought the semen sample from a laborer or a prostitute, intending to leave it behind after the crime, but without any supporting evidence eventually abandoned that notion.

I watched the TV news footage and read the papers when this happened. I remember the police resisting forensic testing of Mr. Gill after they arrested Mr. Gill. Why?

 

When DNA tests were finally performed - over protests from the police - and they established that the DNA at the scene must have come from as Asian source, I saw a senior police official on Thai TV provide the following explaination:

 

On the night of the murder a tuk tuk driver reported to the police that an agitated farang had paid him 500 Baht to masturbate into a sock. That farang was obviously Mr. Gills. No one, of course, had ever mentioned this curious incident before the DNA tests came out.

 

But when pressed to produce this tuk tuk driver, the police couldn't find him. And they still wouldn't back off this ludicrous story.

 

In response to all of this, I remember a senior Thai politician saying that because of the heinous nature of the crime the perpetrator could not have been a Thai. (In other words, forget the evidence; the farang did it.) And I remember some people actually buying into this crap.

 

It is this kind of nonsense that I and so many other expats here find so exasperating. And it happens, on a much smaller and less visible scale, all of the time. And when when we hear that a farang English school teacher is on life support because of dispute with a Sukhumvit street side bar owner because he allegedly failed to pay for a whiskey bottle he accidentally knocked over, and that the police failed to arrest the owner... Or we read posts here from short-timers saying that the farang "must have deserved it" or that things are "just the same" in the West (BS), it is simply maddening.

 

These people have no clue what goes on here, and that is the problem.

[pattaya127]

Whatever the socioeconomic background of any Thai will reflect in the opinion of that Thai. Thais live in close circles within their own socioeconomic background, be it HiSo, LoSo or otherSo.

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I don 't think we have any disagreement, Oran. Just as i said, for someone not speaking the language too well (meaning, badly), and being there at most 6 months at a time, and rather less, my opinions and knowledge, of what I know (which is a lot more than the diameter of a bar stool), are shared by LT residents and insiders, plus thais of every strata.

I am not bragging, I have taken the pain and curiosity of knowing about this country and its inhabitants, not to provide myself with surfire answers, but to be inquisitive about a place that has stirred me so deeply. And changed me for the best. Maybe Thailand and I will get "divorced" some day, but that's a woman i will never forget and remember as a mistake.

 

my ex:

She is of course only educated to speak and write thai, then had to go to work in BKK when she was 16, having a baby from a deadbeat hubbie (forced on her by her father).

 

the 97 crisis put her in the uncomfortable position of having to work a lot more for a lot less less . She was in Laem Chabang at the time, she checked Pattaya, worked as waitress in a restaurant, very little pay, and an owner who wanted to bang her. She quit, and being in Pattaya, in need of money, made the jump, and accepted the offer of a farang to stay with her, while he was on vacation. apparently, he had been very generous and respectful enough that, like so many, their paying company was as good a proposition as anything she had before.

 

She has always resented leaving school, the brother being favored over her, being in the Army is what she wanted. I can say she would have been a hell of a drill sergeant!

 

Not doing too much charity work in Thailand at this moment, but I will make sure her daughter gets the education she wishes and deserves.

[pattaya127]

It is this kind of nonsense that I and so many other expats here find so exasperating

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and a few non-expats, I can assure you.

[buddha]

KS - I don't take his attacks to heart because I realize that he is posting stuff he doesn't know anything about. That is the only point I am trying to make here. If he is carrying on like this on this topic the average reader might want to think twice before taking anything he posts as 'factual'.

 

JJ: Your arguments really don't follow any type of logical pattern. You tend to read a great deal into what is said rather than dispute facts. A debate should get more and more specific so that two people can really dig into what is the actual 'conflict'. You tend to ramble, sling insults, make all kinds of false inferences, and generally get off track. It's a wonder you don't type in all caps.

 

If you'll all pardon me, I'm gonna go talk to my dog. He is a really good listener.

[JJsushi]

buddha said:

KS - I don't take his attacks to heart because I realize that he is posting stuff he doesn't know anything about. That is the only point I am trying to make here. If he is carrying on like this on this topic the average reader might want to think twice before taking anything he posts as 'factual'.

 

JJ: Your arguments really don't follow any type of logical pattern. You tend to read a great deal into what is said rather than dispute facts. A debate should get more and more specific so that two people can really dig into what is the actual 'conflict'. You tend to ramble, sling insults, make all kinds of false inferences, and generally get off track. It's a wonder you don't type in all caps.

 

If you'll all pardon me, I'm gonna go talk to my dog. He is a really good listener.

 

 

[Crap removed - KS]

 

 

You want to talk factual knowledge or your lack of facts? Let's see all you have posted, from the way I read it, was regurgitate some magazine article you read about Suge Knight. That is the extent of your information, knowledge and contribution.

 

"He is a gangsta" u say; man please! Suge was no damn gangsta, a thug mentality and a bully maybe but no damn gangsta. He never was in a gang because he was a star high school and college athlete. If u know so much about the hood then you know that gangs don't fuck with star athletes(unless it involves point shaving), they tend to look out and protect them rather than jump them in because they take pride in someone from their hood being a star and maybe eventually going pro.

 

The closest he got to being gangsta was some honorary Blood by association shit which basically he needed to have street cred, create an image and push his records. He hired a bunch of ex gang members to work for him.

Suge was always a smart business man and he understood the power of promotion and creating an image but he was no indoctrinated gangsta. He was a big, smart, cocky, cat that had no fear.

 

Once his image was established and he had his own little crew no one really fucked with him because they bought into the image he created as a gang backed record producer. In other words Buddha boy, Suge was never a gangsta until he had created the persona/image of one after he established Death Row records. He tried to live up to his own hype and that eventually got his ass in prison.

 

So please stop with this "Suge Knight was a gangsta!" crap.

 

You have not yet posted one thing from your personal experiences or from those you personally know. You have not refuted one thing I said. You claim you disagree and have some insight to "urban gangbangin knowledge", yet you don't post anything except to say you challenge and question what I write.

 

In your zealousness to attack me you have exposed yourself as a damn FRAUD, a PHONEY and a FAKE. If you know so damn much then prove me wrong. That is a straight challenge.

 

Like I said before in a more colorful way,go back to reading your periodicals. I just gave you a first rate education for free.

[buddha]

sorry jj you have no credibility.

[Zorro]

You are like a dog with a bone.....isn't it time you just fessed up and agreed that Thailand has a big problem with violence and it is getter worse.

 

How much evidence do you need?

 

You quote one girl from Pattaya and use that as you basis for saying that maybe there is not much more violence in Thailand.

 

Counter pose you one girl to many policemen in Thailand and expats and some esteemed board memebers and you would rather believe one Thai girl from Pattaya.

 

I think you are just being obtuse here for the sake of it...let it go.....

 

It is also interesting that you mention Pattaya because on Sophon the other night they had a piece on a committee that was being set up to look into increasing violence in the community and more especially petty crimes and violence perpertrated by in many cases young offenders.

Obviously the powers that be in Pattaya are at odds with the one girl you use to try and justify your opinion.

 

Come on Pattaya127 you can admit you were wrong on this one can't you?

[pattaya127]

What did I say, Zorro, i don't understand you coming down on me like that. You have not read my posts at all, and just assume here, so read them first and try to remember them if you want to quote me.

 

It is now clear that I rather find Thailand, especially in its urban setting more violent (though i know old hands who don't think so, but that's their opinion), twice wrote that what the ex said, had nothing to do with what I think myself, and was used only for the sake of showing that living there all your life may not mean the same reality for all.

 

Last, I aligned my own frustration about the thai police and justice system with Gadfly.

 

I also mentionned Pattaya as a place where youth come down and can be quite violent. I have witnessed myself thugs attacking beach dwellers.

 

sorry, man, Here, i don't understand you lashig out as if i wrote exactly the contrary.

 

Looks like you have to catch me wrong another time, if that was the idea. If not that, then read my posts, no need to assume, it's black on white, what I think.

[Zorro]

No mate I am not coming down on you too hard and I have read your posts which are a confusing jumble of contradictions.

In some posts you say there is violence then in other posts you say that violence is no worse....

 

But on the whole you seem to be disagreeing with the amount of violence and increase in violence in Thailand.

 

Would you categorically like to state you position for me as I am confused?

[pattaya127]

yes, it's very simple. I think that many people answer the topic of violence as feeling more unsafe themselves, or not particularly unsafe, compared to before. And it's confused with a more general discussion about violence in Thailand. If someone feels safe, why try to prove him he is wrong. those are personal assessments.

 

EX: Was NY violent in the 70s. yes, it was. Still, i used to walk back from washington Square up to 52nd, after the clubs were closed. that's a bit of a walk. But I never felt unsafe. Would I have deny there was no violence in NY? No.

 

Is Thailand more prone to violence now, in a more gratuitous and wanton variety, I think so. I also tend to think that outside urban centers, it's probably about the same as before, save the incidents in the south ( I actually do not remember if they happened intown or in the countryside, either way, i will not contest it). Now, according to their reality, some people will feel it still rather safe, or rather unsafe.

 

What confuses you is that i am not taking sides, all fangs out. I do understand and does not contest that some people do not feel affected by the rise and consider there is no rise to worry about. And vice versa for those who feel it's getting more dangerous.

 

I also appreciate that people talk from their own personal experience, too many debates here are just theorizing. It is OK to say you read it in the papers, you heard people being scared shitless nowadays, but that would not make this thread some 26 pages long. Most of it due to people getting at each other, just 2 of them, post after post.

 

My surprise, at first, about Oran's first post, was that he would think the same about thais as FJ. Not about the state of violence.

 

I also think gangs and ganging up against someone, are not something new in the thai landscape. The 60s and 70s were a time of extreme violence in Thailand. Whatever in the enforcement and justice systme that is flawed to this day in thailand, was worse then.