Stickman this week regarding violence .

[kamui]

buddha said:

Oh and if Suge happens to visit Thailand and gets shot it's not cause thailand is getting more violent. It's because he has lots of enemies.

 

If this would happen in Pattaya it would be called a suicide anyway.

[JJsushi]

khunsanuk said:

Hi,

 

"A couple of years ago the 17yr old grand daughter of theChief of the Los Angeles Police Dept(largest police force in America) was killed in a driveby at a burger joint. Does that shit happen in Thailand? '

 

Yes.

 

I remember a couple of incidents last year.

 

- a young (15?) girl getting shot and killed by a stray bullet when 2 rival gangs encountered each other on a city bus.

 

- an old man getting pushed out of a driving bus (forgot the exact circumstances, but think this too was related to gangs fighting)

 

- a young guy getting beaten to within an inch of his life because he looked like a member of rival gang

 

- a home made grenade being thrown into a pub with students

 

And I am certain this is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

Sanuk!

 

Your talking about average folk getting harmed, same shit happens here when people get struck by stray bullets.

 

 

I am talking about the significance of the granddaughter of the Chief of LA police getting killed in a drive by shooting by a gang in a case of mistaken identity. The equivalent in Thailand would be the head of the BKK police general whomever losing his grand daughter by getting shot up in a car by a gang. You tell me all hell would not break loose in Thailand? You tell me that shock and horror would not reign amongst the Thais? You tell me that this would not make major headlines for weeks? You tell me that half of BKK would not mourn and decry such an event? In LA it made the front page for 1 day and then it became an afterthought. They also to my knowledge never found the shooter. No shock no sense of grief by the populace and no outrage the attitude was "damn what was she doing in that area? she should have known better!". Another teenager taken down by a extreme violence at the hands of disgruntled youth.

[JJsushi]

FIGJAM said:

jjsushi said:

Same same in many parts of the USA. I can take you to thousands of communitites where people refuse to get the police involved. Maybe u all forget about how large and diverse the USA is?

Again what did you mention that makes this unique to Thailand?

How do the numbers of people involved in those communities compare to the total of the American society?

 

What makes Thailand different ("unique" is a term used only by you in your mind) from America is the prevalence of this attitude.

 

Are those communitites where people refuse to get the police involved prevalent in today's American society?

 

 

Sorry can't tell u the last time I saw a one on one fistfight in the street. The shit just does not happen anymore. Usually a bat,gun, blade or a group is involved. Sometimes a guy will get his ass beat by a group and still get a blade in his heart. We call them "beat downs" nt fights because someone is going to get his ass beat down to the ground..

You learn very quickly to get the hell out of a place if a fight breaks out because some idiot will usually run to his car to "pop the trunk" and get a gun. Toss into the mix drivebys at gas stations, drive thrus, etc. A couple of years ago the 17yr old grand daughter of theChief of the Los Angeles Police Dept(largest police force in America) was killed in a driveby at a burger joint. Does that shit happen in Thailand?

 

Reading some of your posts in other threads on different matters I got the impression that you were somewhat "wired", so to speak.

This thread made me realize that all you know about Thailand mainly relates and revolves around particular circles of people in Bangkok and little else.

You are much more naive and uninformed on everyday Thai life than I previously thought.

 

 

Every so often you will get a cat that is pissed he got kicked out of the club and he will drive by and shoot at the place or the bouncers that kicked his ass. You guys have a very misguided vision of how kids today fight.

Those Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn days are over.

 

Again I ask what the hell is so special about group style fighting in Thailand?

Neither u nor Fig has said anything convincing aside from your outdated notions of how American youth fight. You guys have been in Thailand too long and even though u read English language newspapers you truly have no clue about how shit is over here.

We are talking about Thai and American societies as a whole and you keep referring to teenage stuff. This is how "tuned in" you are on the matter at hand.

Even in this regard there is a lot to say (and part of it has already been said, unnoticed).

 

Anyway, from some of my posts:

 

Seven and a half years ago I was in high school and what we are talking about here has jack shit to do with high schools (gangs do) or with which age you are since the "rat pack mentality" we are talking about is something permeating the whole of the society and manifesting itself in the everyday life of whichever age group you are in.

 

And I wonder what world YOU come from.

 

I'm sorry you grew up in what the majority of the American society P.C.ly calls an "alienated, disadvantaged social background" but as you yourself write "all of my friends and some family were living in shitty neighborhoods [...] so I saw and experienced alot of shit that most suburbanites at the time would never see" recognizing that this is hardly the way in which the bulk of the American society live and think as "normal"...

 

[...]

 

What you have been talking about in your post is basically the social phenomenon of the gangs which I have mentioned in my previous reply to Cent and which is, by the way, NOT mainstream in the American society and is just beginning to manifest in the rest of the West.

 

The day the average "grown middle aged" American man beaten by those teenagers of your example will automatically think the proper, logical and normal response to be to call his relatives and friends and go find those rats to get even by means of knives, bats and guns you would have a point. Until then, your comparision between the mainstream US society and the Thai one is BS.

 

[...]

 

The bulk of the Thai society is the one who, even when dealing with personal problems with other individuals, seeks physical protection and support in family and friends and sees violence and physical power as the main resource available to them to sort matters out. The bulk of the Western societies is the one who, dealing with personal problems with other individuals and more in general in whatever dangerous or troubling situation of any kind, seeks protection and support in the laws, police forces and judicial system of their society, rely on family and friends for the moral and (possibly) financial support through it and does not see violence and physical power as the first and main resource available to them to sort matters out.

 

[...]

 

Bottom line, jjsushi, is that the day you can normally witness the average "grown middle aged" American (or Swedish or French or any other Western) man automatically thinking that the proper, logical and normal way to resolve what originally was a one person vs one person dispute is involving a group of friends and relatives (or hitmen) you and the others here refuting the profound difference between the Thai and the Farang approaches would have a point. Until then, your comparision between the way the US (/Swedish/French/any other Western) society as a whole handles violence and disputes of any kind amongst its individuals and the way the Thai one does, is just a laughable fuming pile of crap.

 

 

 

I have said all along that Thailand has no exclusive on violence. Shit is violent there as it is in most places. Where I disagree is with those that paint this picture that violence in Thailand is SO unique and different than anyplace else. To state that "ratpacking" is unique to Thailand is a pure crock of shit and all it does is tell me that the guys that think so have lived very sheltered or oblivious lives until they came to Thailand.

Are you able to tell the difference between "unique to" and "prevalent in"?

The latter is what I write, the former is what your mind reads.

 

To state that ratpacking is as common in America as it is in Thailand, besides being a pure crock of stinking shit, tells me that you (like most here) have lived a very sheltered or oblivious life ONCE you came to Thailand...

 

 

 

 

I am sure u said some interesting things above but I wouldn't know because I have not read your post. My eyes glazed over when I saw the length of ur reply.

 

 

Dude you have got to quit with the 1001 snippets. I don't have the time nor the energy to address them. I thought I told u this before? Plus once u start snipping everything you lose context- no one ever told u that? Keep your posts concise and maybe I will read them and respond so that we can have an intelligent debate. Otherwise I just won't read them. The choice is yours.

[khunsanuk]

Hi,

 

So you are now saying that the life of 'the granddaughter of the Chief of LA police' is more important than the life of 'average folk'?

 

And the only reason why things here would likely be taken more seriously is due to the class system (i.e. here her life would be considered more important by those in power), not due to the fact that this country is more or less violent.

 

Sanuk!

[JJsushi]

sourkraut said:

jjsushi said:

 

Like I said there is nothing special about the violence in Thailand, u guys make it seem as if marauding bands of Thais are going around chopping off peoples heads with machetes.

 

You guys sound like a bunch of suburbanites that read and view media reports about the inner city violence. None of you experience it first hand but you all heard about someone who did. Therefore everybody is a victim and the world is unsafe.

 

 

 

 

Incidently, yesterday i have attended the funeral of a neview of mine to whom exactly that happened last week - a marauding gang killed him with machetes. Closed casket, for obvious reasons. In the last couple of years several relatives of mine were shot or knifed. In Thailand, if i may add. Is that enough "first hand experience" for you?

 

So far, this increase in violence has not reached yet the main tourist and expat areas. Mainly due to heavy policing, not due to a fuzzy idea of a land of smile. But outside of the by farang usually frequented areas things do look very different.

What you, and others appearantly refuse to accept is that tourist ghettos and upper class lifestyle is not Thai normality. Thai normality are poor villages, slums, lower middle class suburban projects closed to industrial estates. Those areas are infested with gangs.

This situation is not even a closely guarded secret. Politicians of all parties here hold public speaches about the increase in violence. Police talk openly about the increased danger of their work compared to a few years back. TV and newspapers openly report.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some here have asked how to avoid getting involved.

Most importantly, accept that todays Thailand is not anymore the Thailand of 10 years ago. Educate yourself where the dangerous areas are.

In Bangkok it is still rather easy to avoid those areas. Stay in tourist areas, don't go out into the Thai entertainment areas, especially in the suburbs. And if you go there - go with local Thais.

Don't arm yourselves. Even a knife is considered an illegal weapon. A gun will earn you a very long prison sentence. And in case of a violent confrontation you will most likely face a large equally armed group, comprising of people who have no qualms to kill, have often killed before. A gun there will not be a deterrent, will only up the stakes. And be under no illusions - if you use a weapon, chances are that police WILL catch you.

 

Upcountry it is a different game. Villages are equally violent (even if they don't appear so). Listen to the families you stay with. Don't go out alone. Don't go drinking with anyone else than the families you stay with. And if you get into an argument - leave!

Especially dangerous upcountry are village fairs, temple fairs, large weddings and funerals. Basically, almost all situations where many people from different mu bans come together and get drunk. Typical situations of potential conflict are when some women might flirt with you. You never know if she has a boyfriend, or just someone who is in love with her.

 

Most long term expats with a solid knowledge of Thai language and experience how to move in Thai society know very well about the dangers i pointed out. Unfortunately most tourists and farang ghetto expats don't.

You may chose not to believe me, you may say that in all your travels here nothing has happened yet. Up to you. But almost all long term expats who actually do move in Thai circles have some hairy experience along those lines.

The more you get involved in Thai society the more you will have to share exactly the same risk every single Thai lives with every day. And you will get used to it, like every Thai.

Life here still is very nice, as long as you observe certain precautions. Living in denial though is no precaution - it is plain stupid.

 

Dude what exactly are u babbling about? You have not mentioned one thing that tells me that Thailand is so much more violent than any other place I have been. Machetes? How about friends/family having been riddled with bullets from automatic weapons? Do u know how many closed casket funerals there are in any given urban or rural ghetto everyday here in America? Dude please, read my posts again. I NEVER SAID THAILAND IS NOT A VIOLENT PLACE! I SAID THAILAND IS JUST AS VIOLENT AS ANY OTHER PLACE!. I SAID GROUP FIGHTING IS NOT UNIQUE TO THAILAND! I SAID AS A FOREIGNER I FEEL SAFER IN THAILND THAN I DO IN MY OWN COUNTRY! This is true and you really have not said a thing that can convince me otherwise.

 

You have not told me anything that I already don't know and yes I have been upcountry and in the slums of BKK too when I was adventurous and before I started social climbing. I have seen fights and beatdowns in Thailand no different than I saw them when I was young and dumb in America. Shit looks the same top me. I know/knew Thai people in law enforcement and criminal elements too. And I am not an expat. I just happend to swim in different circles over the years I visited.

 

Sometimes u expats need to learn that you don't know as much as you think u do. Time spent in a country does not give you automatic knowledge of the way things are. You can still be oblivious to goings on. I would bet most of you cats were clueless about shit in your own countries and even more so when u got to LOS. Now you see a little bit of killing and violence and corruption and your all being alarmists and extremists.

 

 

"THAILAND IS VIOLENT IT IS NOT ALL SMILES!" you all scream into the void.

 

Any country that has as many hookers, poor people and dope being manufactured as Thailand does will have serious violence. Any kid in the States can tell u about Thai stick. But Thailand has never had anything near the devastation that inner cities went through with crack in the 80's. That shit wiped out entire neighborhoods with the associated violence and poisoned generations of youth, changed our entire social fabric actually. I would take the social ills caused by yabaa anyday.

So your little bubble of happy smiley Thais was burst.

It was violent before u got there and it is violent now and it will be violent after you depart.

You would have been a fool to believe otherwise.

Spare me please, cause u ain't telling me shit.

 

I know I am safer as a foreigner in Thailand(provided I don't get into shit I am not supposed to) than I am in NYC or LA or redneck country. Kids get beatdown and even killed over Ipods here.

[pattaya127]

KS:

All agreed that Thailand is becoming more dangerous.

---------------------------------------------

 

So, am I. Point was about the general assumption that someone who lives there longer than another has to be the top authority on a subject.

 

 

 

choucroute (that's sourkraut in french ):

And now, after phoning one village girl you are steadfast again that there is no increase in violence.

-------------------------------------------

 

show me where I said that and the champagne is on me. Maybe on you, if you can't. Deal?

 

 

 

Is it just me, or are you actually as confused as i am about the meaning of your posts?

-------------------------------------

 

yes, it's you. Me, i am just basking.... ::

 

Thailand is a lot of things. And as I always say, you find one thing, and its contrary the next minute, hour, day, week, etc....

People scam you, people give you back the 250 000 bahts you lent them. a motobike taxi charges you more than is due, a taxi driver loses 2 hours to give back the wallet you left in his taxi. A farang gets beat up, thais help him up and take him to the hospital (carew66).

 

Life's a pendulum, choucroute, some get lucky, some less, some are out, then in again. And that's what I dig about this country too. you always rebound, you don't let past events define the next, crying "look what they did to me!".

 

Thailand is as good as life, and i love life.

 

Hope that answers your conundrum.

[JJsushi]

khunsanuk said:

Hi,

 

So you are now saying that the life of 'the granddaughter of the Chief of LA police' is more important than the life of 'average folk'?

 

And the only reason why things here would likely be taken more seriously is due to the class system (i.e. here her life would be considered more important by those in power), not due to the fact that this country is more or less violent.

 

Sanuk!

 

Don't sleep KS America is very much a class based society, albeit not as stringent. Americans have ways of elevating their status through academia, wealth/money, marriage and politcal power. The lines may blur but trust people do know where they stand in the pecking order.

[khunsanuk]

Hi,

 

So, then what is your point?

 

Sanuk!

[FIGJAM]

kamui said:

Hitman/gangs commissioned almost daily by politicians, bureaucrats and business men to kill/intimidate anybody who comes in their way, like villagers/environmentalists who oppose encroachment, e.g. There is no comparison in West Europe, except in South Italy maybe (Mafia).

According to the Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems (2000) Italy scores appreciably better than Germany in their Total Crimes stats (both in sheer number and on a per capita basis).

ONLY regarding murders the numbers are practically identical (once considered on a per capita basis):

 

Italy 746

Germany 960

 

Funny how Italy manages this given the "almost daily Mafia killings" you are talking about.

So, either Germany has a bigger Mafia problem than Italy or you just call it "high level organized crime" over there... Which one is true, kamui?

 

FYI, today's mafia has very little to do with the real historical phenomenon (and nowadays almost "mythical") south Italy's Mafia and it survives mostly in Hollywood movies.

(BTW it's called Mafia or Cosa Nostra only in Sicilia, it's called Camorra in Campania, 'Ndrangheta in Calabria)

 

Italian Police class about 150 of those 746 murders as "high level organized crimes" (or "mafia" if you prefer), the rest of those are "small criminality/common citizens" crimes.

Similar percentages in Germany.

 

 

That said, I still don't like southerners

 

 

it seems that the law system is only a tool in the hands of the powerful people. No comparison in Europe (except Italy again).

Of course the fact that the Italian govt isn't exactly best friend with your Germany's Shroeder, France's de Villepin and Spain's Zapatero (all great leftist statesmen leading those countries and the very Europe into its luminous future unlike the manipulative, strongly anti-communist and pro-Bush Berlusconi) has nothing to do with this other ludicrous statement of yours, right?

 

Please don't bring stinking euro-politics into this thread or nobody will get out of here alive...

 

 

P.S. Offer my respects to your local "padrino" back in Germany...

[JJsushi]

Bangkoktraveler said:

 

 

If you read the paper everyday, it seems like every other day somebody does get their head cut off with a machette in Thailand. You don't actually believe this does not happen?

 

And if you read the papers here everyday in the States there is a child molested, someone murdered, someone abducted, gang wars and fathers killing their families in murder suiicdes. You don't actually believe that this does not happen?

 

 

 

[color:"black"] Quote:

 

I was attacked by 4 men with machettes.

I got to experience the feeling you get when looking at a machette blade that has a brownish red color on it. I also shared the space (room) with an American who got attacked by men with machettes in the same area of the city that I was attacked. Because he was "picked up" and brought in right after I arrived at the hospital, I suspect he was attacked before I was. I have a feeling the brownish - red on the number two man's machette was from the American.

Yes this stuff does happen!

 

[color:"blue"] By the way, my attacked happened near one of the sky train stations, and on the sidewalk on the south side of one of Bankok's better condominiums. [/color]

 

Yeah and I have been mugged, had a gun pulled on me, robbed @ knifepoint, been in a couple of riots, brawls, had my car searched by cops for contraband on a dark street late @ night, bit my a guard dog,etc, etc, etc. Quit your whining about some machetes. You should have seen it coming. You don't know how to cross the street?