Stickman this week regarding violence .

[FIGJAM]

elef said:

You still must read more and learn more.

You have been arrogantly mocking me for not understanding what your point of view was since, you said, you have clearly stated that it was the same as jjsushi.

 

It turned out that IT WAS NOT and that the one unable to understand what is written is, in fact, you.

 

Yet, you are still telling me that I must "read more and learn more" all the while you are keeping on making statements which are the exact opposite of what jjsushi says!

 

elef: "Thailand is more violent than Sweden and Switzerland"

 

jjsushi: "I have been in and around Thailand long enough to know that it is as violent as any other country."

 

Sorry elef but forgive me if I'm not interested in your crap anymore.

 

 

Still some areas in our swedish bigger cities are as bad as the worst in Bangkok.

 

Is Thailand more violent than USA? In the biggest american cities the situation is IMO worse than Bangkok. If you compare some nice american suburbs with Thailand outside Bangkok I think you're right. On the other side I've visited rural areas in Thailand which have less violence than many not so big american cities. So all generalizations are dangerous.

No generalizations are not dangerous, if they are understood.

They do not negate that parts of farangland are worse than parts of Thailand. All they say is that AS A WHOLE Thailand is more violent than the West.

 

After all the repetitions, you (and others here) are still failing to grasp this simple concept.

[elef]

If I should answer you this time it would be breaking the rules so I don't.

[FIGJAM]

elef said:

If I should answer you this time it would be breaking the rules so I don't.

I can imagine: personal attacks with no arguments...

 

An easy way out for you.

 

...Well, you might PM me the personal attacks part (I promise I won't reply if that is your wish) and might post here your counter-arguments to the IT part (if you have any, that is)

[FIGJAM]

Sukhumvit said:

Sure expats/long term residents will have an idea of what's going on back home but they won't get the full picture.

And shouldn't be at least the very same for people not residing in Thailand about what's going on in Thailand??

 

 

Actually, I strongly believe that it's much more easy for farangs in Thailand to keep themselves up to dated on what's going on in their native countries than it is for farangs in their native countries to keep themselves up to dated on what's going on in Thailand.

 

The reasons are obvious to me but are, apparently, not so obvious to many others here:

 

1. We are not Thais, we are farangs. Born, raised and educated in farangland. It's there where our roots are.

 

2. There are infinitely more sources (and they are infinitely more reliable) available to farangs living in Thailand to keep themselves up to dated on what's going on in their native countries than there are available to farangs living in their native countries to keep themselves up to dated on what's going on in Thailand (and dare I say it, most of the latter revolve around message boards like this very one!).

[Paillote]

elef said:

 

"Thais as individuals are not more violent than we in the west. You must add culture, religion and history to get the result that Thailand is more violent than Sweden and Switzerland. "

 

What is this? An explantion to why the violence is higher? Or are you actually disputing that Thailand is more violent than Sweden and Switzerland?

 

"Still some areas in our swedish bigger cities are as bad as the worst in Bangkok."

 

Care to mention where these areas are? Most people on this board don't know much about Sweden, but I can assure this is absolutely ridiciulous... Heck, I would bet (yes I have no facts to back it up) that even the worst police district in Sweden sees much less crime than the most quiet police district in Thailand. Sweden more violent than Thailand, now I have seen that too...

 

Paillote

[elef]

Hi Paillote,

 

I can send you for walking in the night in some areas in the outskirts of Stockholm. I guarantee that your chances to pass through without being attacked are less than in similar areas in Bangkok.

 

elef

 

And that was my last contribution to this thread as I prefer discussing on a higher intellectual level.

[Guest]

elef said:

Hi Paillote,

 

I can send you for walking in the night in some areas in the outskirts of Stockholm. I guarantee that your chances to pass through without being attacked are less than in similar areas in Bangkok.

 

elef

 

And that was my last contribution to this thread as I prefer discussing on a higher intellectual level.

 

 

 

I doubt that you would dare to walk at night through infamous sois such as Soi Wat Bang Hua Suah, Soi Suan Som or Soi Lek. Even the locals don't. And that is only in the area of one police district i happen to know rather well, there are many others i am less familiar with, but all with similarly infamous sois.

Local youngsters often can't even walk further than 200 meters from their slum or mu ban due to gang conflicts at any time.

But please be free, i can give you directions, so you can see and experience for yourself. ::

It's rather interesting there at night - a couple of kilometers of dark road, industrial estates, factories, wasteland, apartment blocks and slums. Nobody around, other than every couple of hundred meters a collection of yougsters hanging out, often openly carrying machetes. Stretches of road where said youngsters test their motorcycles for the bigger races later on. Then larger groups, often several hundred, roam around the streets, chase other gangs.

Now, i hope you can run rather fast, that would be essential while having a stroll through the area at night.

 

I am sorry if my blunt description might not meet your intellectual standards. So please, enlighten me, i might have just blundered in my interpretition of said areas due to being intellectually inferior.

[kamui]

Not directed at anyone in particular:

 

Of course as a non Thai speaking tourist to Thailand I cannot add anything substantial to the problem of violence in Thailand, but maybe I can add some observations to this thread:

 

The base of the discussion:

There are no reliable statistics available which have the same quality like statistics from Europe or the US.

 

This causes the main problem: how do we collect data which can be verified:

 

a.) Western Media. There is not that much information in it and they don't give the big picture

 

b.) Thai Media (newspaper, TV)

- there are not that many members here on the board who a.) are able to understand it, b.) followed it for a long time (over a decade or so)

- as any other media inside and outside Thailand, daily reports might give the impression of a lot of violence in Thailand, but this does not help to understand the development of violence in Thailand in the last decades. In Germany for example people feel less secure nowadays, even the crime rate went down in the past years. But since there are more reports in the media, the people get a distorted picture.

 

c.) Reports published by Thai researchers. Probably there are some reports available, but unfortunately no board member seems to have access to them.

 

d.) the "feeled" and private statistics of violence - that's the core of the discussion

Since there are no statistics available everybody here on the board has his own idea of the development of violence. From tourists like me who have never ever encountered real violence in Asia (from Japan to Cambodia) to board members who live in Thailand and who have been attacked personally.

 

IMHO the people who live in Thailand, who speak Thai, who are married to Thais and work in an Thai environment are the most reliable persons to inform us about currents in Thailand (even Pattaya127 disputed this, strangely). Too bad that Fly is not here anymore, he could have added some valuable information to this question.

 

Street violence can be found in many places all over the world and it seems to be rampant in Thailand as well. School kids killing each other in buses, gang warfare, robbery, drunken fights at every(?) festival, e.g. Most expats here on the board say that this kind of violence is a) very, very common and on the rise. IMHO we should not ignore their expertise.

 

By the way, comparisons with some areas in Western cities are completely worthless, since many Western cities are not free from violence neither, but this says nothing about the general grade of violence neither in a Western country nor in Thailand and its progression in recent years. And to add, the grade of violence can be quite different in between different Western countries and even within a country. Just remember that the crime rate for example in New York went down considerably in the last decade, but this kind of positive development is ignored completely here in the discussion; the general assumption is that everything is becoming worse, which is wrong IMHO.

 

Even some here on the board seem to deny it, violence seem to exist at all levels of the society:

By the way, the talk of older, middle/upper class women not being violent is a kind of nonsense, this is probably the lest violent group in every society in the world. But this Thai women still can cut off the dicks of their husbands, which seems to be a Thai speciality ::, or hire a killer (see a recent thread on a bar owner in Hua Hin):

 

- Governmental supported violence: 2000-3000 people killed during the war against drugs by policemen et al.. Mass killings by the military in the South. Any comparison to Europe/USA?

 

- Hitman/gangs commissioned almost daily by politicians, bureaucrats and business men to kill/intimidate anybody who comes in their way, like villagers/environmentalists who oppose encroachment, e.g. There is no comparison in West Europe, except in South Italy maybe (Mafia). Does this happen almost daily in the US as well? In Germany all members of Greenpeace are still alive, even they stopped the construction of new nuclear power stations, which caused losses of _billions_ of state money to energy companies.

 

- Upper class criminals who _never_ get jailed due to a corrupt police/law system and keep on acting violent. Witnesses who get killed or silenced frequently.

What I have read here, it seems that the law system is only a tool in the hands of the powerful people. No comparison in Europe (except Italy again). Our law systems may not be perfect, but it is not THAT flawed like in Thailand. We have a certain level of trustworthiness in the laws. I don't know about the US, but US board members remark frequently that in the US problems would be solved by courts while in LOS going to court is completely fruitless.

 

So, is Thailand more violent as for example the UK, Sweden or California?

Probably yes, following the board. For sure, if you compare it to Germany, where guns are extremely rare, kids don't wear machetes, policeman don't act as killers and people of all classe love to go to court.

 

Is violence in increasing in Thailand?

Most expats here on the board say yes.

If you talk about the violence ordered by the Government the simple answer is, of course yes, since Mr. T runs the government.

I wonder how a society can be/stay/become peaceful when the head is rotten?

[khunsanuk]

Hi,

 

"I can imagine: personal attacks with no arguments..."

 

You too are getting *very* close to this with some of you comments and I suggest you turn things down a notch.

 

Sanuk!

[buddha]

jjsushi: "Just the other day at a celebrity party for the MTV video awards a record producer was shot and wounded in the party. The party was attended by the likes of Eddie Murphy(major movie star), Paris Hilton(billionaire heiress Hilton hotels) and other celebrites. You tell me where the hell that would happen in Thailand where the biggest celebrites are exposed to a gunman at a highly secure party. One of Charlerms sons puts a bullet in the head of an off duty cop @ a bar and all of you guys are moaning about the extreme uptick in violence in Thailand. Come back and live in the West for a few years and then tell me about how unsafe Thailand is."

 

This is such a bad example that I gotta call bullshit on just about everything you relate on urban America. I am not trying to bash, but anyone with a perfunctory knowledge of 'the hood' [east coast - west coast - any urban environment in America today] would never have used this as an example.

 

First of all Marion 'Suge" Knight is a gagster and a thug. He has spent more time in federal prison over the last ten years than outside, and he uses his gang affiliations [bLOODS] to strong arm associates throughout the music industry. When he was to be realeased from prison Interscope Records had a slew of undercover cops roaming the halls because he is both: marked for death and reknowned for his violence in dealing with people who have 'crossed' him. He cannot escape mention as the force behind the slaying of Tupac and the Notorious B.I.G. and is the guy who held vanilla Ice [total dork] off of a balcony by his ankles until Ice agreed to a publishing deal with interscope owned death row records.

 

The fact that Suge Knight was shot the other night is no surprise to anyone who has any 'real' knowledge of what is going on in Hip Hop or urban America.

 

His appearance at this party was probably not welcomed by any of the celebrities you mentioned, and he probably just rolled in with his set. It's just that because he is such a hard core 'gangsta' unlike a the majority of hip hop stars. I bet a lot of people kissed his ass and beat it the hell away from him as fast as they could.

 

In addition to this being a really bad example, in that it isn't surprising at all, I take issue with some of the things you mention:

 

You refer to Suge as a record producer. It sounds like you read that of of some 'mainstream' news site as no one who has any real knowledge of him would refer to him as a record producer. Dre produced almost everything out of Death Row, Suge got peoples names on contracts and made people [radio, club, and record store placement] play their shit.

 

I mean if you really know what you are talking about, whats happening culturally in urban america today, you wouldn't be surprised if Suge Knight got shot at the White House. The real surpise is that the guy is still breathing. A complete target.

 

Oh and if Suge happens to visit Thailand and gets shot it's not cause thailand is getting more violent. It's because he has lots of enemies. When he does get popped it will be no surprise to anyone.