Sin Sot, when is 1,000,000 baht too much?

[Guest]

Since the thread has degenerated from a question about excessive Sin Sot to the validity, or necessity, of marriage, I’ll throw in my two cents:

- Ex-wives can be a very expensive hobby!

- A marriage license is a legal document; as with any legal paper, know what the ramifications are BEFORE signing it.

- The only defensible reason to get married is that you want to have legitimate children and raise a family.

- Your idea about ‘love’ is not the same as hers. This whole tradition of western ‘romantic love’ has only existed for less than a few hundred years. In many ways the Thai concept of Sin Sot amounts to paying for something of value you are taking away from the family… fairly practical, really.

- I’m a firm believer in Cultural Relativity; Western cultural norms are not better than the East… but think about all the other cultural differences that are going to bite you on the ass when you lest expect it.

Disclaimer:

Marriage: been there, done that. I would consider it again, but am very much ‘twice shy’. If you are having enough doubts to post your concerns to a ‘sanuk’ message board… deafening alarm bells should be going off!

[jingjoh]

Steffi, the more you posted about this problem and the attitudes of your Gf and family the more 'walk away' rings out. I have spoken to my younger thai friends many times about this, one example is the sister of a friend who works in TV and has some good bit acting in soapies, she is very pretty with a Degree. Her husband payed 1 million baht and 20 baht of gold, he is a doctor, chinese thai and from a very wealthy family.

Another close friend is 23 and his gf is 21, will finish University this year, Thamasat, and is from a well to do bangkok chinese thai family. He expects around 150 give or take 50K depending on how her parents view him, he is from a good family and works very hard to help pay his tuition, but is not rich, middle class.

A village girl finished school, but no tertiary education, around 20 to 50K depending on her family background. Your gf would expect her dowry to a thai man to be no more than 200K, and that Thai man will have to be educated like her and hold down a half decent job. In fact he is a far better proposition for the familes face than you are.

Really does sound like they dont want you as a son in law. From my chats and interaction with my Thai friends, the consensus would appear that Kohn Kaen aint BKK mate, and a degree there is not held in as high regard as one from Bangkok (not including rahmkahmeng

and subsequently they would not expect the dowry to be as high, even if it matched BKK they are still talking 200K tops. And they would expect to get gift packets from the guests aswell.

[steffi]

I know it's mothers day but my GF told me the other day that her mother has said that she doesn't mind if my GF and me live outside of Thailand and work but she would like us to return to Thailand later and the quote as "will give land anywhere we want"... I know there's some limitations on where anywhere could be but in any case it seems that her mother is starting to appreciate me and understands her daughters wishes more.

Whether I pay the 1 mill or not I don't know but it will certainly ruffle some feathers if I choose not to at this stage. I'm comfortable that my girlfriends affections are geniune.

The concern I have is that if I pay for the reason that they want security for their daughter that the daughter has every incentive to cash in when times are tough after marriage. I don't like this and would prefer that everybody has every incentive to work on the relationship after marriage when/if problems arrise.

The idea of living in Thailand does appeal to me but I'm in my early thirties and haven't really planned my life like that. It is perhaps a good thing because I'm an only child and my father is 71 years old whilst she has a full family with two sisters who will most likely remain in Thailand.

The problem is what does a farang do for a crust in Thailand and what they are paid. I'm paid quite handsomely in IT outside of Thailand now but IT doesn't exactly thrill me all that much and I will be looking for a career change eventually. As I feel quite numbed by working in IT for the last 8 years.

[Guest]

Well, I thought this topic was dead for awhile and decided not to participate and now that it's alive again.

Here's my opinion:

=After one million, who's gonna pay for the party, who's gonna keep the money and gifts you get from all the guests. Don't forget to ask them this.

=It's possible that her parents don't want you. If you can't have that money or give up, who cares, our daughter is educated and can take care of herself, any eligible thai guy will want her.

=I don't know what you think about 'sin-sot', to me it's the thing that the guy's family gives to the girl's family to say thanks for raising this girl the way she is and now I see her value and I want to have her as a wife, she will now take care of me, my household, my family, and I too will take care of her.

=In some families, when the guys give the girls the sinsot. The parents and the relatives of the girls will also give you some 'GIFTS' to welcome you and to help you build a new family, don't underestimate that, you may get more than one million baht back. Sinsot is just the way to see whether you can and you will. (Don't ask them about this, they will see how much you provide first, then they may top it).

=In term of supporting her family, her father works for the government, mostly the government will take care of him (though too minute in Farang's eyes) he will have his monthly income, the hospital bills will be paid for him and his wife. I don't see any sick buffalo to worry about.

=As you say that the parents are respectable, and the girl is respectable, then believe me, she (and her parents) worries about this whole thing more than you do. No respectable Thai girl (or any other individuals) wants to get married and then leave her husband after a while. Every respectable one gets married and expects it to last for his/her lifetime. (respectable in my case doesn't mean wealth, power or education though.)

=Most Thais believe that farangs are rich. It may be difficult for you to change their opinion though.

=for someone who calculate this as money per activity, .....

In conclusion, you said so that this girl is good, I don't think one million is too expensive for a good wife (Am I gonna get killed here or what?). If you don't have the money, talk to her, then talk to her family, show your sincerity. Good and sincere people will understand it.

Last, this is just an opinion of ONE idividual, use it carefully.

Good Luck

[Guest]

steffi,

unfortunately IT seems to be one of the very few things where foreigners can make a career of here in thailand, if you don't want to teach english.

when you think about career change, then do your research well. it is not going to be easy to make a living in thailand, but not impossible.

good luck with your relationship, don't listen to the retards who compare marriage with how many short times they could afford instead of paying dowry. or even how much they have to pay to an impoverished father for the use of his daughter.

[Guest]

My Thai wife wanted 200,000 and got 50,000. I decided after getting her US visa approved that it wasn't going to work out and dumped her for the sweetheart I should have married a year ago, and she said she doesn't want a dowry - just wants me Her parents, who are relatively poor, support her decision. Her mom said if she's happy and sure that I'm the one, she wants nothing but for me to make her happy and love her.

[ August 13, 2001: Message edited by: PakWaan ]

[Guest]

“Anyway, her parents concerns for asking for this much are that they want security for their daughter in case she is dumped later on”

“ I love my girlfriend very much but this money thing is getting in the way of our happiness together. That said, when we last sat down and negotiated (lets say) I felt like I was in the room alone and that everybody, including my GF, was reaching into my pockets.”

“ A lots been said already ... Let me say that I believe my girlfriend loves me but she needs to see from me some proof that her family will be looked after and in general her family have concerns about what will happen to her if she gets left high and dry”

“ And the thing that frustrates me is that she never sticks up for me really. I know of a lot of thai marriages that were conducted without sinsot and from what I've seen the success storys are usually found in the modern familys who forsake tradition for their daughters happiness”

Steffi,

I think you are contradicting yourselves: who want the money your G/F or the parents.

 

You said that you know your G/F for 1.5 year Right. Once I knew my wife, Khun Mae was also worried on the stories she heard on farang dumping their Thai wife. As she knew that I would not marry her daughter on the spot, she was also very worried on this, but as time passed by and my trips to Thailand became more frequent (6 – 7 times a year), Khun mae knew that my feelings for her daughter was genuine.

On that very moment (after 4 years) that we told her our plans to marry, Khun Mae did not ask for anything. She just want a good husband for her daughter.

 

Think about this twice, your G/F have to stand behind you and not put herself between you and her parents.

I wish you good luck.

[jingjoh]

Just to move slightly off topic here, I have a question for the board members.. How many of you would marry a woman you had never slept with? Honest answers and reasons why, especially from the ones who would!

[Guest]

Steffi,

Hi!

My sin sot was a million baht also. However it was only for show and her parents did not touch it. It already has be return. Had to show it before the engagement party. The Wedding is this coming November.

The reason given was same as yours.. security for their daughter. Knowing that I could provide for her.

Her backgroud so maybe this can help with negotiations to get it down. Her family is upperclass Thai-Chinese living in Bangkok. She quit her job at the end of June to be with me. Her salary was around 88,000 baht per month as a Vice President. She is curently studying her 5th language which is now Spanish. Two master degrees..one from University of Warwick in England and the other was at Sophia University in Tokyo, Japan. Her BA was at "TU" in Bangkok.

Her sister received the same million baht dowrey when she married a Thai Doctor ten years ago.

My fiancee has been quite candid with me that ALL of her Thai women friends had told her to get as much money as she can from me, while I still loved her. I ask her "all?" Her response was "99.9%" Her concern was why they thought this Reasons given were 1. In a year or so, I probably have a Mia Noi 2. In a couple years she could still find a job very easy but how bout 5 years? Then what would she do if I died? 3. If we had children, she needs to think about a nestegg to provide if I can't.

Scary huh? How many Thai women gave her this advice? She said "over twenty!"

My response was.. "I could understand how they could feel that way as most of them had probably heard nightmare stories of other couples but they don't know our relationship and that we will love each other forever." I went on to add.. " They don't know also, you will be provided for if I die."

So guys if you were one of the 20 or so women, what would you say?

[Guest]

Interesting thread and some very informative and thoughtful posts. The following is Marriage price list from a recent Trink article. It roughly complies with my understanding of Thai marriages. I would also add that the marriage money thing is sort of like the tradition that the wifes family pays for the wedding in the USA. It doesn't always work that way.

It also occurs to me, after reading all this, that there may be something to this marriage money concept after all.....All this talk about money has forced steffi, his lady and her family to evaluate how really serious they all are about getting into this marriage. That thought process is a good thing. Maybe that is what her parents had in mind all the time?

One small point. Khoen Khen and Petchabum are generally not considered Isaan. And a smaller point. I was best man at a friends wedding to a lower class country girl from Khoen Khen and he paid 100,000. He had already given father 200,000 to build a house but father built half the house and spent the rest on flaky investments. Father keeps asking when Farang is going to give him the rest of the money to finish the house. Daughter thinks he has more Flaky investment oppurtunities. Anyway, my friend gave 100,000 for the marriage and never saw a satang of it. I don't think this is one of the things you can negotiate before hand.

From Trink:

"However, vis-a-vis the girl's social standing and is rarely negotiated. If the girl comes from a good family (i.e. honest, not necessarily rich), a good portion is usually returned to the bride and groom.

A symbolic show of commitment on the part of the prospective groom, indicating his ability to support his bride, it is given back to help the new couple start their life together.

In general, the amounts according to social standing are as follows: Lower-class up-country girl, 30,000 to 50,000; middle-class girl, 50,000 to 100,000; upper middle-class girl, 100,000 to 200,000; upper-class girl, 200,000+. For a girl from a well-established Thai family, expect to pay 1,000,000 and up.

As for bar girls: What they should get (about 20,000 to 30,000 ) and what they demand (whatever the traffic will bear) is outside this tradition as they have no social standing in the minds of the Thais, and aren't known to follow the rules (i.e. they keep all the money).

The chances of any farang getting into the 200,000 strata is pretty remote, if not nearly impossible. At that level, the Thais are a particularly clannish and exclusive lot, viewing most farangs as barbarians, even if they're rich. "

[ August 13, 2001: Message edited by: nepfan ]