Middle East crisis.

[chuckwoww]

If it is wrong when Hizbollah kills Israeli civilians, then why isn't it wrong when Israelis kill Hizbollah/Lebanese civilians?

 

 

 

The usual reason given is that Hezbullah hide behind the civilian population.

[..]

I agree Fidel. From Juan Cole:

 

In the days before the US-commanded forces unleashed the second siege of Falluja in November 2004, a quarter million women, children and old men fled the city, but males between the ages of 15 and 45 were denied passage. They were essentially criminalized and forced to remain in a zone upon which hell was about to descend. These poor souls were condemned to a legal category that philosopher Giorgio Agamben calls hominus sacres, those without rights who can be killed without it being called the murder of a human, homicide.

 

Israeli leaders have a decision to make. After the IDF's devastating losses at Bint Jabeil on Wednesday, the Washington Post Foreign Service reported this statement from former Mossad officer Yossi Alpher: "I dare say, based on what we've seen so far, these may be the best Arab troops we've seen so far." An Nahar today reported that, Israeli Justice Minister Haim Ramon proclaimed: "Everyone who is still in south Lebanon is linked to Hizbullah, we have called on all who are there to leave." He then suggested that "maximum firepower has to be used." As justification, he cited the meeting in Rome, from which "we have in effect obtained the authorization to continue our operations until Hisbullah is no longer present in southern Lebanon."

 

Look at this logic: since Israel has asked civilians to leave, any that "disobeyed" have forfeited their status as civilians. Because the United States and its British followers have blocked the resolution to stop the killing, Israel will continue until Hezbollah "is no longer present." But remember Hezbollah has been redefined to include all those "still in south Lebanon." This crude logic renders all the people of southern Lebanon hominus sacres.

 

A serious war crime may be imminent. The responsibility to protect civilians does not end when an invading army asks them to clear out. An Nahar also reported that hundreds of people were trapped in southern villages. Moreover, there is evidence that some who tried to flee north in cars have been targeted.

 

On his web log informedcomment.com, Juan Cole argued on Monday that since Hezbollah fighters cannot effectively aim their rockets, and since they must understand they are most likely to hit civilians, they are therefore guilty of war crimes themselves. Hezbollah leaders would undoubtedly respond that they are not intentionally targeting civilians. From the beginning of the war, Israeli leaders have justified the deaths of Lebanese civilians by claiming that they also never target civilians; it is simply that Hezbollah fights from civilian areas and there is a lot of collateral damage when they are targeted.

 

All of this is bad enough, but what may be in store if the frustrated IDF begins to treat all people in south Lebanon as enemies will be a war crime of a different magnitude. In most past wars, the victors had the luxury of telling the story, and prosecuting the war crimes. In this war, the eyes of the world are squarely fixed on what is about to happen. Israel's powerful ally may be able to prevent prosecutions of its decision makers, but all will know what decision they made. Most importantly the Arab World will know, and will not forget. Israel has a decision to make.

 

Regards,

SD

[chuckwoww]

No mention of phosphorus or chemicals in that article. Just a question of time IMO.

[McBif]

Fidel,

 

I'm as selective as the next man in my moral outrage, but I have to ask you: if you are "ranting" as you say over the situation in Lebanon then you must be utterly incoherent and prostrated with shock over the situation in, say, Sudan or Uganda or the Congo.

 

If not, there must be other reasons for your outrage not spelled out in your post.

[Flashermac]

You are only a war criminal if your country loses the war. That message has been shown time and again.

 

e.g. From the Wikipedia:

 

"At the end of World War II, several trials of Axis war criminals took place, most famously the Nuremberg Trials. However, these tribunals were expressly prohibited from considering any allegations of war crimes committed by the Allied powers or their military forces."

 

 

[MaiLuk]

No doubt the whole mess is fucked up. And the lebanese caught in the middle do not deserve to die. So why does hezbollah fire rockets into israel kniowing that someday israel will respond? Just not sure what other way israel can defend itself. Should the israeli gov go on TV and say to its citizens: Sorry, but you will just have to live with a thousand rockets reigning down on you forevermore because our clever enemy hides itself and its rocket launchers in civilian areas.

 

Fidel, why don't you say FUCK HEXBOLLAH? Is that too hard for you? Why do you only look at israel's response and fail to see that this is orchestrated by hezbollah?

[chuckwoww]

Olmert has said he needs 10 days to 2 weeks to achieve Israel's 'military objectives'. Presumably he will be ready to negotiate after that.

[Fidel]

Other reasons McBif? Yeah, I'm an anit-semite!

 

Of course I'm outraged about what's happening in Sudan etc, particularly in Sudan the world has stood by and watched, empty rhetoric is about the most we've seen.

 

There are many reasons why I'm outraged by the situation in the Middle East. The actions of the Israelis are sowing the seeds of many more years of war and instability in the region.

 

Meanwhile, the US keeps shipping more and more hardware to be dropped on innocents. If this is the type of response we get from the leaders of the free world, God help us.

[McBif]

Fidel,

 

I don't mean to imply you're an anti-Semite; rather the reverse: That you perhaps hold the Israelis to a higher moral standard than the Arabs and thereby condescend to and dehumanize the latter.

 

Of course, oil is very important in the Middle-Eastern equation (otherwise the world would pay as little attention to it as it does to far bloodier central African wars) but I'm convinced the very Western character of Israel is what perhaps unconciously riles a lot of Westerners - you know, "They should know better." As for the Arabs, "Well, what do you expect?" This from people who would be horrified to be accused of racism.

 

I personally try to expect the same standards from all parties and all peoples. For that I'm regarded as some kind of nut. Go figure.

[..]

Olmert has said he needs 10 days to 2 weeks to achieve Israel's 'military objectives'. Presumably he will be ready to negotiate after that.

 

LOL. Optimistic fellow. Two weeks to do what 18 years of occupation failed to do. Yeah right.

 

Regards,

SD