Old Hippie Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 At this point, I have no idea what you are really talking about here...most likely me, I'm a bit daft at times...most times. You said... "...immigration laws are made by governments to preserve the priviledges of the people born withing the countries boundaries- nothing legitimate..." So who should the laws protect? It seems fair to think the7y should protect the interest of the people in the country to which new immigrants are arriving. It stands to reason if you let in a bunch of unskilled, uneducated people, they will take the jobs (at a lower rate) away from the uneducated/unskilled people born in that country. Where are theyt supposed to go? O.k. you say the new immigrants will work harder for less...how long until they figure out they are being "exploited" or other wise taken advantage of, and demand more? form unions etc...? it does happen. Ever work with new arrival Filipinos? ever see hoe long it takes one to yell discrimination and sue someone? not long I can tell you. Your comments are of interest, but they confuse me a bit...on one hand you say privilidged people benifit from keeping immigrants out, but on the other hand, the privilidged people who stand to benifit from the cheap labor make out...so who is really the privilidged? and who is really making out here? Oh, and what is your solution to illeagal immigration? and to immigration as a whole? just open the borders of all countries, and let people go where they want, no controls? And what country are you from/reside in? and how do these things effect you and your country? Explain please... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kojis Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 "So who should the laws protect? It seems fair to think the7y should protect the interest of the people in the country to which new immigrants are arriving." yep, makes sense if you recognize the cutting of the Planet earth as legitimate, while I have a hard time figuring out how you could do so. "it stands to reason if you let in a bunch of unskilled, uneducated people, they will take the jobs (at a lower rate) away from the uneducated/unskilled people born in that country." So the better, then companies can be more productive. I'm all for shooting in the head an unskilled worker whining we shouldn't let him be replaced by a cheaper harder working foreigner. "Where are they supposed to go? " see the bullet in the head sugestion above, otherwise they're welcome starting working harder or smarter or die of hunger or robbing or whatever they may find suitable except forcing others to be solidary with their shortcomings. ""O.k. you say the new immigrants will work harder for less...how long until they figure out they are being "exploited" or other wise taken advantage of, and demand more? form unions etc...? it does happen. Ever work with new arrival Filipinos? ever see hoe long it takes one to yell discrimination and sue someone? not long I can tell you. " So?? you complain illegal imigrants get exploited (and say in the first post of this thread we should kill them if they pass the mines while crossing the border... that was obviously a friendly gesture from you showing your concern of them beeing exloited...) now you complain they wil become educated and ask for better working conditions soon... so?? that means they become educated... one more benefits of globalisation... dunno why this upsets you, dunno where's the issue, industry would adapt, increasing the wages or hiring newer poorer immigrants. "Your comments are of interest, but they confuse me a bit...on one hand you say privilidged people benifit from keeping immigrants out, but on the other hand, the privilidged people who stand to benifit from the cheap labor make out...so who is really the privilidged? and who is really making out here?" priviledged... that's relative... interestingly the issue is about rather underpriviledged lower to midle classes in the West scared of beeing replaced by needier people than them with similar qualifications. Those westerners feel so insecure they must understand how insignificant are they skills so that they could be offered so readily by others. On the other hand you have lots of people seeing globalisation as a huge ooportunity, like myself. I live bit in Paris, bit in BKK, bit in london, bit in other places... been living in many more cities...I don't worry about how many chinese or mexican work in my home country... I can always sell my goods or skills the world over... open world where the strong would thrive and the weak would perish, no matter the citizenship. I like the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lazyphil Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 You remind me of Blackadder 3.... At Mrs. Miggins' home Edmund: Well, Mrs. Miggins, at last we can return to sanity. The hustings are over, the bunting is down, the mad hysteria is at an end. After the chaos of a general election, we can return to normal. Mrs. Miggins: Oh, has there been a general election, then, Mr. Blackadder? Edmund: Indeed, there has, Mrs. Miggins. Mrs. Miggins: Oh, well, I never heard about it. Edmund: Well of course you didn't -- you're not eligible to vote. Mrs. Miggins: Well, why not? Edmund: Because virtually no one is: women, peasants, (looks at Baldrick) chimpanzees (Baldrick looks behind himself, trying to see the animal), lunatics, Lords... Baldrick: That's not true -- Lord Nelson's got a vote! Edmund: He's got a *boat*, Baldrick. Marvelous thing, democracy. Look at Manchester; population 60,000, electoral role, 3. Mrs. Miggins: Well, I may have the brain the size of a saltine... Edmund: Correct... Mrs. Miggins: ...but it hardly seems fair to me. Edmund: Of course it's not fair -- and a damn good thing too. Give the like of Baldrick the vote and we'll be back to cavorting druids, death by stoning, and dung for dinner. Baldrick: Oh, I'm having dung for dinner tonight. Mrs. Miggins: So, who are they electing when they have these elections? [color:red]Edmund: Ah, the same old (?): fat Tory landowners who get made MPs when they reach a certain weight, raving revolutionaries who think that just because they do a day's work that somehow gives them the right to get paid... Basically, it's a right old mess. Toffs at the top, plebs at the bottom, and me in the middle making a fat pile of cash out of both of them. [/color] :smirk: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kojis Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 Nice Phil, really nice. Reminds me Tom Sharpe is one of your neighbours...could have been from him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Hippie Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 "...So?? you complain illegal imigrants get exploited (and say in the first post of this thread we should kill them if they pass the mines while crossing the border... that was obviously a friendly gesture from you showing your concern of them beeing exloited...) now you complain they wil become educated and ask for better working conditions soon... so?? that means they become educated... one more benefits of globalisation... dunno why this upsets you, dunno where's the issue, industry would adapt, increasing the wages or hiring newer poorer immigrants...." Random, No no no, you have it wrong here. Actually, I didn't mean smarter as in academic, or even skilled...I ment wise up to what was, and what those before them had...sooner or later, one of them will have the brains to raise on his fellow worker's backs, and say "...hey, you used to pay the dumb white/American guys 2 times what you pay us! we demand more!..." and strike etc... That is what I ment by smarten up, I did not mean get an education (something those south of the border seem to frown upon) and go to University, I ment just get wise to the game... Now, do you honestly think things like medical benifits (we have no national care plan in the USA, agree, we need one) pensions, paid holidays etc should be eliminated? I know the west has it good compared to others, but then concider the boss in Asia thinks giving his workers 2 days a month off, and 4K bhat a month is spoiling them...so maybe all relative. I assume you enjoy a decent standard of living? Am I further correct in assuming that you believe you are in the elite group that deserves more? I'll remind you, that (in your words paraphrased) you "had the luck to be born in a better place with more opportunities..." Yes, I agree, shoot the stupid low ambition people who demand too much, they do indeed pull the rest down... A problem now as I see it is simple, everyone wants to compeate with China and India...we cannot, they make way less than we do, many enjoy a better standard of living than we do on 5 times the salary...so short of cutting everyone's debt down to coincide with lower wages, it cannot be done... (debt as in mortgages, car payments, rent, bills in generel). As for you not really caring about illeagal aliens, as you feel they will not harm you, in fact you will benifit from them! I can appreciate that, but they are a serious problem here in terms of draining social services they don't pay for (most don't pay taxes) not to mention the crime...so well, our issue to deal with. As long as someone will benifit by using/exploiting them, we will have this problem, and we will suffer for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kojis Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 "No no no, you have it wrong here. (...) That is what I ment by smarten up, I did not mean get an education (something those south of the border seem to frown upon) and go to University, I ment just get wise to the game..." hhhmmm... really coz it's a boring londonian evening some reply... I understood U OH, it seems U conveniently excluded from your quote my reply to your suggested problem: "industry would adapt, increasing the wages or hiring newer poorer immigrants." Not a very important point your objection, more of a non issue. Wasn't looking at the issue only as an employer POV. The point was it's legitimate for people to strive for a better life standard and indeed it's logical one day they ask for better work conditions...than they will be your full flegded brothers and sisters I guess...legal citizens and all... "Now, do you honestly think things like medical benifits (we have no national care plan in the USA, agree, we need one) pensions, paid holidays etc should be eliminated?" kinda seriously "I know the west has it good compared to others" you know well "but then concider the boss in Asia thinks giving his workers 2 days a month off, and 4K bhat a month is spoiling them...so maybe all relative. " Sure relative, asian employement features are fine for me. "I assume you enjoy a decent standard of living? " It's relative again, I would love to live in "Le louvres" but even the half decent apartments I've tried renting in Paris lately went to some fuckers who might be only making 150Ks a year but get a fixed salary and pay an outrageous share of tax. Now paying 300 US$ corporate rate per night in London and the hotel is still a shithole. all relative you see... " but Am I further correct in assuming that you believe you are in the elite group that deserves more?" You're not. I deserve fuck all, but if I earn it than fine. "I'll remind you, that (in your words paraphrased) you "had the luck to be born in a better place with more opportunities..." Yep! I'm all for taking profit of opportunities (would have loved beeing born wealthy chinese etnhic in Thailand) Doesn't mean I take it as an argument for others to stick to the shit they were born in...in contrast of other posters here... "Yes, I agree, shoot the stupid low ambition people who demand too much, they do indeed pull the rest down..." you're a wise man OH! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabbish Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 Exactly what I have been screaming about! Fuck these assholes that think they can just come here and get on the dole, we owe them nothing! You're missing the point. If we're talking about U.S and European immigration both our "countries" are dependent on cheap immigrant labour. These are the people that pick up our trash, nanny our kids and offer sex on the streets. If they were to strike it would bring our countries to a complete halt. They are infact a new poor class without the rights as us normal citizens (health care, social security etc). They just make it harder for the people born here to get the services they need...fuck this lot, land mines on the fucking border! Shoot those who make it passed the mines! So for example when pollution renders it impossible to live in the US or Europe you'd want africans and mexicans to stand on the border and shoot us down? No offense but when you say stuff like that it kinda sickens me. No, we owe them NOTHING. We OWE the people who exploit them a trip to court/prision. If it weren't for these guys explouiting them, and giving them an incentive to come here, then they would be less likely to come here... Well if there's a market for something somebody will fill that gap. It would make more sense if our goverments would stop exploiting the countries they come from, thus making it unnecessary for them to come to our countries. South-america and Africa should be the two richest continents in the world, yet they are two of the poorest. That is a direct result for what our goverments are doing, mostly the U.S. as for exploited labor in third world sweat shops, the clothes produced in these places are sold all over the world, hence, up to all of us to boycott these goods right? Buy a shirt in Thailand? shoes? any clothes? any goods? probably produced in what we/any of us would consider a sweatshop. So you don't drink coca-cola, buy nike shoes? Boycott never works. It's not the individual companies that are evil it's the system. If we boycott one company another will take over where they left off. So not just the USA economy dependent on them. In fact it is not, that is just what the politicos want you to think, truth is, they hurt the economy, not help it. I agree, take a pair of nike shoes for example, they cost a couple of dollars to produce yet in the store they sell them for up to a hundred. So obviosly the money is profit for nike and the rest is put into marketing that serves to corrupt the system even further. I mean soccer player are millionares that chase a ball hand-sewed by asian child workers. Can it get more corrupt? BTW, I see this is your 3rd post...just joined the board for this debate? why not do so under your regular board name? and what country are you from? and what are the ILLEAGLE immigration problems there like? I'm originally from Sweden but i lived in Barcelona for a couple of years. I recently moved down to Bangkok and i thought this thread was about spanish speaking ppl on the board, that's why i came here. I'm sure you are familiar with the immigration problems in the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Hippie Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 "...You're missing the point. If we're talking about U.S and European immigration both our "countries" are dependent on cheap immigrant labour. These are the people that pick up our trash, nanny our kids and offer sex on the streets. If they were to strike it would bring our countries to a complete halt. They are infact a new poor class without the rights as us normal citizens (health care, social security etc)..." We really are not dependant on these people at all...I used to buy that argument, but not any more. They hurt more than they help. Our trash is picked up by over paid city workers, sex on the streets...? ugly ho's...the hot foreign girls charge top dollar...nanny our kids...in some cases yes...if they struck...no big deal, they haven't got the guts, and are too easy to replace...they tried that, it failed. In terms of rights, they have none, and are not entitled to any, as they entered the country illeagally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabbish Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 We really are not dependant on these people at all. I did some research on this. According to Center for Immigration Studies: "The foreign-born population of the United States is currently 33.1 million, equal to 11.5 percent of the U.S. population. Of this total, the Census Bureau estimates 8-9 million are illegal immigrants. Other estimates indicate a considerably higher number of illegal immigrants." So if we assume the lowest number 8 million. It means that 2% of all U.S workforce is illegal. In that case they might now bring the country to a halt but it would constitute a major blow to the economy if theoretically these ppl would stop going to their jobs. All these ppl work underneith the minium wage so who'd replace them? In terms of rights, they have none, and are not entitled to any, as they entered the country illeagally. That it's illegal is not an argument, I thought the nazi's taught us that. Speaking of legal, if the Nürenburg trials were to be applied all post WW2 U.S presidents would be hanged, and rightfully so i might add. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavanami Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 I did some research on this. According to Center for Immigration Studies:"The foreign-born population of the United States is currently 33.1 million, equal to 11.5 percent of the U.S. population. Of this total, the Census Bureau estimates 8-9 million are illegal immigrants. Other estimates indicate a considerably higher number of illegal immigrants." So if we assume the lowest number 8 million. It means that 2% of all U.S workforce is illegal. In that case they might now bring the country to a halt but it would constitute a major blow to the economy if theoretically these ppl would stop going to their jobs. All these ppl work underneith the minium wage so who'd replace them? You numbers are incorrect in that all the illegals are not working. Some are on welfare, some are Moms at home, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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