Pat Tillman: 3 head shots.. from 10 yards

[Steve]

Would agree that some people make the distinction between Afghanistan and Iraq. While some don't.

As far as government coverups or embellishments on the truth and all that, that happens in EVERY war. Even the 'just' ones like WW 2. To keep americans buying war bonds and submitting to quotas on materials, a lot of the acts of bravery were embellished and the soldier brought home to go on tour to tout the buying of war bonds. Unfortunately it happens. When it happens in wars that are not 'just' it makes it worse. Also, ALL sides in a war do that propaganda, embellishment thing. Hitler kept Rommel's involvement in the conspiracy to assassinate him quiet as Rommel was very popular with the public and if was let out that Rommel was against him, it would hurt his support.

 

My guess is Tillman's death was friendly fire by a overzealous american soldiers. Not ruling out some grand conspiracy but I think it would be very unlikely. At that time our soldiers in Afghanistan were shooting at anything that moves. We were shooting allies at the time. Some Brit soldiers were more worried about the U.S. soldier behind him than the enemy in front of him.

 

In any event its a tragedy. The truth is always best. Once again the government doesn't trust the people to be able to digest the truth. Its one of those 'we know best and what is in your best interest' arrogance that BOTH parties have of americans collectively.

 

 

[Old Hippie]

Hmmm...I joined the army for 2 reasons, 1) to better myself with the opportunities it presented and 2) to avoid jail, which is where I was headed at an accelerated rate. I did not join for any patriotic reasons at all.

 

I got sent to El Salvador, also served in Nicaragua. I was very much against what we were doing there. What we were told and the reality were 2 very different things. It was ALL 1 big lie from the start. I have no doubt this mess in Afghanistan or Iraq is the same thing, and I can see where some troops with ANY brain power at all, could quickly figure out they were duped and would become resentful.

 

As for Tillman wanting to fight those responsible for 9-11...tough call, as many of them are in Washington D.C. Of course that is another conspiracy...which seems to maybe have a hint of fact behind it...

[foreigner]

>That hardly makes him anti-war.<

If i miss typed & said he was anti war I made a mistake

he was dead against the war based on lies in iraq.

 

i think many who joined the military to fight the 911 attackers were caught off guard & dis-illusioned by the insane lies that got us into iraq.

that is the problem with allowing non-dummies into the military .. they can think ..

dummies that kill & die for amoral lies do not know the differance ..

thinkers like pat tillman can have second thoughts about their misplaced patriotism.

 

March 18, 2007 CNN poll showed that support for the Iraq war had dwindled to 35 percent. In 2004, support for the war was about 56 percent.

 

Support for the war in Afghanistan also has seen a considerable decline as 88 percent of those polled in 2001 said they were behind the conflict. This month's poll indicates that support lingers around 53 percent.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/03/18/poll.wars/index.html

 

back out the shrubs retarded base from cnns #s:

less than 10% of non-retarded americans support the iraq debacle.

while over 30% of the non-retarded americans support the forgotten Afgan / bin Lauden efforts

 

300% more non-retarded americans support the catch bin lauden efforts than support the shrub's successful removal of wmds from sodomy insane.

 

many of us, apparently including pat tillman,

believe Afghanistan was / is about national security

& Iraq was / is about colonialism & imperialism.

[foreigner]

>Even the 'just' ones like WW 2.<

 

that's right .... change the subject, it's the best a hard core freedom fryer can do.

 

name a valid 2007 reason we went into iraq?

iraq was based 100% on connived neocon lies!

 

i am not defending sodomy .. but seeking a single valid reason for our turning that country into rubble.

 

name a valid reason.. 1 ..

I'm waiting.

tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap

 

some neocon / freedom fryer help us out .. come on .. name a 2007 valid reason for iraq.

 

1?.

 

protect oil supply is the best I can come up with.

 

gulf 1 was same same, justified by lies.

& sodomy was correct .. (except for the dummie colonialists) kuwait is the southern state of iraq

 

 

[chuckwoww]

>

 

many of us, apparently including pat tillman,

believe Afghanistan was / is about national security

& Iraq was / is about colonialism & imperialism.

 

I think a lot of people are having second thoughts about the so-called War on Terror. In hindsight invading Afghanistan looks like a knee-jerk reaction. Some might even argue that the US got suckered into something. Or maybe the US and guys like Tillman just wanted to kick some Muslim ass.

 

It's a pity Tillman isn't alive to tell his story. It could have been very interesting.

 

As for Saddam I think his biggest mistake was compensating Palestinian suicide bombers. He was toast from that moment.

[Steve]

Not changing the subject, but you're stating things that happen in all wars. Not that its right but by being selective and stating horrific or illegal things about a war you disagree with when the same things happen in wars you agree with is intellectually dishonest.

 

The Iraq war should be wrong on its own merits. If it was fought cleanly without incident to innocent civilians and no torturing it should still be wrong on the original premise for going into such a war. THAT is the proof of a war being wrong. Why a country entered into it in the first place. How its fought is also a factor but the original reason is all you need to label it a just or unjust war.

 

Was WW2 unjust when American and allied soliders committed atrocities in the heat of battle? Even if the reasons for entering were right and just?

[Old Hippie]

"...I think a lot of people are having second thoughts about the so-called War on Terror. In hindsight invading Afghanistan looks like a knee-jerk reaction. Some might even argue that the US got suckered into something...."

 

CW,

 

My understanding is, there was something about oil and pipe lines? and this may have been the real reason for Afghanistan?

 

Steve,

 

"...Even if the reasons for entering were right and just?..."

 

 

History has a weird way of changing...some argue the Japanese struck back because of oppressive embargos and trade. The Germans...well, yeah, they should have been stopped earlier for sure.

 

Gulf war one, remember how good we all felt? The fact is, Hussain had tried to work a deal with the world regarding the disputed Island/territory, it fell on deaf ears. Like wise, the WMD argument, he was cooperating with inspections, but he was damned no matter what he did, GWB wanted him out, and wanted control of the oil.

 

"...i am not defending sodomy .. but seeking a single valid reason for our turning that country into rubble..."

 

I will defend Hussain a bit here. Yes, he was a bastard, a killer, an tyrant etc...*BUT* He kept the people inline. If the USA pulled out, there would be a blood bath in Iraq (well, some claim anyway) he kept the loonies in line over there, including the supposed AL-Queda types.

 

The situation is probably a lot worse without him, than with him. Like it or not. The best/smartest thing we could have done was try to cooperate with his initial request but, for whatever reason, we know what happened...why is maybe another matter?

 

 

 

 

 

[kamui]

Back to the OT.

 

Before this thread I had never heard about fragging and I was very surprised how often it happened during the Vietnam war:

 

During the Vietnam War, fragging was reportedly common. There are documented cases of at least 230 American officers killed by their own troops, and as many as 1,400 other officers' deaths could not be explained

 

Three bullets from less than 10 yards, couldn't this lead into this direction?

[Flashermac]

I never knew of a fragging incident, but we did have gas attacks in my company. Someone rolled a CS (tear gas) grenade into the "lifer hootch" (commissioned officers & senior NCOs) on several nights running. Turned out it was a Spec 5 who was pissed off at the first sergeant ( = company sergeant major).

 

I mentioned it years later to a CID master sergeant. He said he'd tried to get the brass to look into gas attacks. He told me that every fragging incident he investigated had been preceded by a gas attack. He felt the gassing was clearly a warning.

 

 

p.s. My father told me about a German patrol in late 1944 marching into his bivouac in Belgium to surrender, with their Nazi Party member lieutenant at the head with his hands raised and a rifle pointed at his back. The LT had a black eye and other marks on his face. Seems the lunatic wanted his men to fight to the death, and they didn't seem to like that idea. They beat the crap out of their platoon leader and surrendered instead.

 

 

[Flashermac]

p.p.s. I've heard tales about a British battalion commander killed by his own men in the Falklands.