Estonian man murdered in Soi 15, Walking Street, Pattaya

[drogon]

I do not agree with the "victims play a part in their fate".

 

Most of the time this is not the case (exactly the same kind of things an Imam said in Asutralia some months ago about women who were raped wanting it)

 

In this specific case, when you enter willingly a fight then you have to accept the risks.......

(I never fought in my life as I was never in a situation where I had to)

 

It seems to me that there are 3 big "opinion currents" on this board:

- The overly apologetic ones, LOS is perfect and so on....

- The overly alarming ones (all Thais are scum etc..)

- The middle line

 

Thailand is neither hell nor heaven, it is just a place where it is still a bit better than back home (whatever the reasons which make you live/go there).

Suicides and murders and "sudden farang death"?

Well, in some cases I tend to believe that the dead foreigner is just a guy who was killed while he did absolutely nothing wrong.

In most cases, they did something wrong or plain stupid, murdering them seems to me to be quite disproportionate compared to the offence they committted.......

 

Security in LOS? If the stupid tour operators were not advertising LOS as a perfect country then there would be less tourists and thus less murders.

By the way, even if repeating myself, if you are bored of insecurity, violent Thais then come to Madrid, you will certainly take a plane back to BKK in no time (despite the police and guardia civil being everywhere and a bit less corrupted than the MiB)

Ah, by the way, look at your home country first then compare.

Why dont we start a PR campaign asking tour operators etc... to stop sending tourists to LOS

as they are a bunch of tourist killers?

 

Cheers

[Paillote]

Can't remember any large bouncer in either Angelwitch or What's Up, which are the main bars on Soi 15. Can't remember any hassle when poking my head into either and not sitting down. In fact, I'll often stand there scanning the bar for my spec and, if it isn't there, leave without sitting. Don't remember any hassle.

 

There is a very dodgy showbar with some kind of Egyptian look after you pass Secrets bar. Think this bar is on soi 15, and it would not surprise me a bit if that is the bar in question. Demands entrance fee and looks like a place to avoid. Might have some shows that you dont find in most go-gos since people are willing to pay to go inside.

 

Paillote

[Fidel]

I definitely take the middle line on this one.

 

Come on now. What were these 3 guys going to do exactly?

 

They were on someone else's turf, with no idea of who they were dealing with, and they went back to kick some ass.

 

Of course, I'm not saying the blame is entirely with the victims, of course the blame for the death and injuries lies mainly with the perps.

 

However, if these guys had continued on to another bar and put their nasty experience behind them, one of them wouldn't be dead right now.

[Central Scrutinizer]

Fidel and all,

 

There is another thread on this in General that Alfmaz started. I'll repeat here what I posted in that thread:

--------

Alf,

 

'are we all going MAD'

 

Nope (or same old same old actually), just another night in Pattaya with a mixture of sex, testosterone, Thai greed and anti-farang attitude, and likely more booze involved than brains. Those gents should have just walked away and not gone back (at least not without some cops as back-up to press their complaint). Once they returned the Thai boys had face involved as well as 'abnormal' male machismo that Thai men (especially the bouncers in bars) seem to have just as badly as any Hispanic. Never fuck around with or argue with the bouncers, as they are all just itching to blow off some energy in a fight. This is not only in Thailand, but anywhere involving bar bouncers. It can easily get very ugly. These guys are not hired for their brains or their charm and people skills. They are hired thugs. If you push the issue with them things will usually become violent. Anywhere, any country, any bar.

 

Was the violent action overboard and stupid and criminal? Of course it was, totally inappropriate more than likely, 15 to 3 for chrissakes. Were the 'Estonians' (someone says they were maybe Rooskies) foolish for going back. Damned Skippy it was, a big mistake which turned lethal for one.

 

I am not excusing the Thais their mad behaviour in their handling of this. They are just thugs as I said, brainless muscled fighting machines. I do blame the bar owners more than anything for not training these boobs in non-lethal control of these sort of situations. A few lawsuits would go over well in my opinion, but this is Thailand after all. The owners don't seem to care much about this crap because, well, it seems here in the LOS they don't have to really. The cops don't seem to give a shit about the tourists and farang, and neither does the Thai government except to try to sweep these happenings under the rug as much as is possible. The status quo will remain. After all, who cares about a few dead sex tourists really in the west? There will be no uproar about this stuff in the western press. No one cares, and likely most will think you were deserving it just by being in a whorehouse area in a third world country taking advantage (in their minds) of poor third world brown wimmin with cash for sexual favors. You are just another stupid, sleazebag, dead whoremonger in many eyes.

 

So, at least those of us who know how these stupid clashes can turn out should know how to handle ourselves. Walk away. Whatever the ripoff was it is not worth dying over. It is only money (and usually not a lot either) and 'live and learn' is the best attitude to take here when out in the whore zones with a buzz on. Walk the fuck away, because you can very easily have it all escalate into someone getting killed, and more likely than not it will be you and not the Thais. It is a sad thing, but it is true and you'd better get used to the fact if you visit here or live here. It is highly unlikely you will win in any physical confrontation here with the locals, especially the bouncers, and you may even end up in the ground.

 

Sad, but true. Mad? Surely. It is the reality though, and it pays to keep that in mind, drunk or sober, or in-between.

 

JMHO.

 

Cent

 

[CTO]

Yeah - your all quite right, and I see now that all women should be covered head to foot in Burka's, would stop rapes immediately, in fact, let's make that a law.

 

Middle line? On what? I agree with your definition, but in this case, of crime being committed, and while I am thinking there are times to be sensible and avoid certain areas, but to attribute ANY blame of death upon the foolish reminds me only of those who support freedom for anyone to buy guns, invade Iraq and ban all Muslims from flying.

 

Whilst stupidity plays a part sometimes upon the victim in crime, it NEVER absolves the guilty, nor should it tarnish the innocent.

 

<>

 

"mainly", you know I will use this line next time you cry out about USA injustice's upon the world

 

 

[Fidel]

Come on now, CTO.

 

Question: Did the course of action chosen by the victims (returning to take revenge) contribute in some way to the outcome?

 

I think so.

 

To this extent, the victims share some of the blame for the outcome.

 

Of course, in the mind of the victims, it was possible that they would have come out on top. What then? What if a Thai guy ended up bleeding to death instead?

 

Fighting to defend yourself or your mates is one thing, but going back on the offensive rarely achieves anything, normally it makes things worse.

 

Advice to residents and visitors:

Avoid fighting if at all possible. It can be dangerous.

[Flashermac]

A bit more negative attention in the world press might cause the Thai authorities to stop some of these over the top attacks. There's a big difference between punching somebody out and bashing their head in with a steel pole or stabbing them with a broken bottle. Then again, maybe it wouldn't. The "powers that be" seem more eager to cover up tourist deaths (rapes, etc etc) than to punish those who commit them.

 

 

 

 

[simie]

As previous posters have mentioned I think the Thai reaction was totally over the top and the victims where foolish to have gone back in the 1st place. But I think part of the problem with these sort of incidents that happen on a regular basis in Pattaya is that many people who are new or relatively new to the place just have no idea what they are getting into. From the regular tourists who are basicly missold their holiday as they probably think they are going somewhere that looks like Phuket or Samui and end up in the biggest brothel in the world. To the newbie mongers who seem to think they are in a mongers alice in wonderland and leave their brains at the airport. These people forget that amongst all the decent people in Pattaya (farang and Thai) and the slightly dodgey but basicly decent ones you also have not only much of the dreggs of many western countries but also the scum of Thai society. Many just fail to realise this and act accordingly.

Simie.

[wonderlust]

Soi 15 is one af my favourites so the whole thing is very disturbing to me. There can't be more than about 15 male touts on that soi so they must all have just piled in to whack the farang. Normally I just ignore them but that's going to be difficult knowing they have blood on their hands. Who wants to be paying the wages of murderers?

[simie]

I remember about 10 or 12 years ago a friend of a friend was walking down Patpong 1 slightly worse for drink and instead of ignoring the touts told one to fuck off. Almost instantly he was jumped by about 7 or 8 and given a good beating, but fortunately nothing too serious.

Simie.