Iraqi reporter throws shoes at Bush and calls him dog

[beano]

I seriously doubt that Iraq or' date=' for that matter any other country in the region, is ready for true democracy. [/quote']

 

You gotta crawl before you can walk.

 

It all boils down to the rationale Pres. Bush and V.P. Cheney laid out so clearly after 9/11:

 

Eventually WMD will be available off-the-shelf to all with money. The Middle Eastern countries will be awash in money for so long as oil has value, which means for some time yet. How, then, can we hope to keep WMD from being used against us?

 

We either have to set up and maintain a defensive perimeter that works 100% of the time (essentially impossible) or we have to help bring about social and political transformation throughout the Muslim world such that the Muslims themselves oppose and thwart terrorism directed against us (highly difficult).

 

What other options do we have?

 

We do not promote demoracy in Iraq because it is easy and likely to work (it isn't) nor simply because it would make Iraqis better off (though it would). We promote freedom and democracy in the Muslim world because it is the only available long-term strategy against jihad.

Setting up a ruling elite with a strong military, which I believe is being planned behind the scenes anyway, is a far better option as long as Iraq is a key oil producing country.

 

The UK had this down to a fine art in the Middle East before they dropped the ball after running out of money during WW2.

The US has made a rod for it's own back by supporting Israel, regardless of the ethics involved here, and the region will never be stable as long as Israel exists... unless it is made to be.

 

Rhetoric about promoting freedom and democracy is all very well but it's a waste of time trying to force them onto people who would despise these things if left to their own devices.

[Steve]

"...help bring about social and political transformation throughout the Muslim world such that the Muslims themselves oppose and thwart terrorism directed against us..."

 

Replace 'help bring about' with the word 'Force' and we wonder why they reject western democracy.

 

"...promote demoracy in Iraq..."

 

Replace 'promote' with the word 'force' as well.

 

That doctrine has INCREASED terrorism. Al Qaida had no presence of any significance if any in Iraq when Saddam was there.

 

Its pretty arrogant of any nation to force its way of governing on another. The communists felt just as confident as Americans did that their form of governing was what was best for the masses around the world. We're acting no different that the soviets that we demonized years ago.

 

Some countries are not ready for western style democracy and perhaps due to cultural and/or religious reasons some may never be or won't for a long, long time.

Democracy has to come naturally, not forced. There are some scholars who think that the middle east needs to go through a few transitions before eventually going to a representative form of government.

 

History has taught us that the middle east has turned on each other whenever a foreign threat is removed. There are major fissures within the middle east. Sunni v. Shia, tribes having blood feuds with each other. The governments are almost as hated by the populace as their hatred of the west.

 

Remove the one thing that funds these governments: oil money. If America and the west weaned themselves off oil to the extent that present domestic surplies would far exceed the need, the middle east would have no money to fund WMD programs, nuclear programs or terrorist groups.

 

We remove our need to be in the area economically (oil) and our need to be there politically will be gone as well. The people will start to look closer to the corrupt and/or incompetent governments they presently have. The house of Saud will lose not only money and the power that money weilds but will come under pressure to give up being stewards of the holy cities of Mecca and Medina.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Faustian]

I seriously doubt that Iraq or' date=' for that matter any other country in the region, is ready for true democracy. [/quote']

 

You gotta crawl before you can walk.

 

It all boils down to the rationale Pres. Bush and V.P. Cheney laid out so clearly after 9/11:

 

Eventually WMD will be available off-the-shelf to all with money. The Middle Eastern countries will be awash in money for so long as oil has value, which means for some time yet. How, then, can we hope to keep WMD from being used against us?

 

We either have to set up and maintain a defensive perimeter that works 100% of the time (essentially impossible) or we have to help bring about social and political transformation throughout the Muslim world such that the Muslims themselves oppose and thwart terrorism directed against us (highly difficult).

 

What other options do we have?

 

We do not promote demoracy in Iraq because it is easy and likely to work (it isn't) nor simply because it would make Iraqis better off (though it would). We promote freedom and democracy in the Muslim world because it is the only available long-term strategy against jihad.

 

What utter and total bullshit.

 

Post-invasion justifications. Totally unrealistic and dishonest.

 

Invading a country isn't "promoting" democracy.

 

[beano]

It's no good assuming world leadership if you're going to be wishy washy about it. Removing Saddam, who was anti-fundamentalist and pro-West, was a mistake that can only be rectified by establishing a similar local strong man who is fully aware that he owes his power to the US.

 

The main problem and ongoing is that if left to it's own devices the Mullahs will take over... democratically, and Iraq will turn to Iran who are committed to the destruction of Israel.

[Bangkoktraveler]

I seriously doubt that Iraq or' date=' for that matter any other country in the region, is ready for true democracy. [/quote']

 

You gotta crawl before you can walk.

 

It all boils down to the rationale Pres. Bush and V.P. Cheney laid out so clearly after 9/11:

 

Eventually WMD will be available off-the-shelf to all with money. The Middle Eastern countries will be awash in money for so long as oil has value, which means for some time yet. How, then, can we hope to keep WMD from being used against us?

 

We either have to set up and maintain a defensive perimeter that works 100% of the time (essentially impossible) or we have to help bring about social and political transformation throughout the Muslim world such that the Muslims themselves oppose and thwart terrorism directed against us (highly difficult).

 

What other options do we have?

 

We do not promote demoracy in Iraq because it is easy and likely to work (it isn't) nor simply because it would make Iraqis better off (though it would). We promote freedom and democracy in the Muslim world because it is the only available long-term strategy against jihad.

 

What utter and total bullshit.

 

Post-invasion justifications. Totally unrealistic and dishonest.

 

Invading a country isn't "promoting" democracy.

 

 

 

[color:red]Faustian, what rogie says makes sense. [/color]According to his logic, we can hit rogie any time we want to because rogie might hit us some day. Makes sense, doesn't it?

 

Did we pass lesson 1 rogie?

[Faustian]

LOL

 

Those unknown unknowns Cheney referred to, right?

 

Preemptive reasoning could make life most amusing....

[Bangkoktraveler]

LOL

 

Those unknown unknowns Cheney referred to, right?

 

Preemptive reasoning could make life most amusing....

 

 

Yes, you are getting the picture. Did you know, we have the right to throw our shoes at rogie because some day he might throw his shoes at us.

 

 

 

[Faustian]

I'm not really the shoe throwing type, I like my footwear too much, but can I move into RYs home, control his resources, sell his goods for huge profits and live in his home, telling him it's good for him? Can I do all this because RY might throw shoes at me? He might...even though I didn't find any shoes in his home (he's the barefoot hippie type ya know).

[Bangkoktraveler]

I'm not really the shoe throwing type, I like my footwear too much, but can I move into RYs home, control his resources, sell his goods for huge profits and live in his home, telling him it's good for him? Can I do all this because RY might throw shoes at me? He might...even though I didn't find any shoes in his home (he's the barefoot hippie type ya know).

 

 

Yes! You can move into rogie's apartment because you fear he might throw his shoes at you. You can take his monthly bus pass and his paycheck because he might throw his shoes at you. While you are at it, you can teach him about democracy and freedom. If he doesn't listen, you can elctro shock him because you fear he might throw his shoes. You can invite me over to his apartment and we can have one big party. rogie wouldn't mind paying for the party because we are afraid he might throw his shoes.

 

 

rogie, did we pass Lesson 2?

[teddy]

It's no good assuming world leadership

 

You should have ended it there. Makes more sense :thumbup: