The Western Men, are they kind or gullible?

[jasmine]

Please allow me to open a new thread. It is a growth from ?Just guess what comes next!!?

 

Warning: LONG Reading!!

 

What I would like to propose us to consider is why there are so many of these young/not so young Thai women who feel that the Western men who they barely know, can help financially. Is it because that they see these men as very kind perhaps gullible?

 

Allow me to share my own story, I am quite vulnerable here, ladies and gentleman, if any of you take a pot shot at me I will CRY. I am sharing with you my experience not to show that I am superior than the other women, but to show that there are many ways ones can solve whatever life problems are if ones try hard and long enough.

 

If you read some of my posts, it is known that I am not from a rich family or considered from the so-called upper class Thai society. What got me here today are the education, which my family believes in, my brain, and opportunities I have received from people who have faith in me. I have had many opportunities to get some money from people who were more than willing to share but I did not take advantage of any, because of my up-bringing values, which are:

 

1. Integrity

 

2. Honesty

 

3. Get the priorities straight

 

4. Help yourself first

 

5. Give yourself an opportunity to solve problems in constructive ways

 

6. Pride, sometimes downright stupid but nevertheless, pride

 

My future was threatened when my father, who was a police got killed on duty when I was in the 11th grade (16 years old) in Bangkok, I never saw his body for I was away as an exchange student. We did not own even a house then, for the old inheritance money was gambled away by my father a long time ago. My father was considered educated, spent sometimes in the UK. When he died, he left us with debt and my brother was only 10 years old. My mother who grew up in a small village never had a chance to go school so she is uneducated, however her intelligence is unsurpassed. The life insurance could not be collected due to corruption, it took over 3 years to collect and a bit of ?tea-money? to grease the official fools. At the meantime, my mother was left with responsibilities to send money to the daughter (me) in Bangkok, to pay debt, and to raise one eating-a-lot-10-year-old son. Neighbors told my mother a thousand times to take me out of school and send me to work, ?Good looking girl, good English and French, she can earn lots of money.? The worst part was my then-beloved uncle (whom my parents sent to college) agreed.

 

What saved us was, the gold that my mothers bought, (not much, but enough for food for a few months) and bless my father?s soul for not touching my mother?s jewelry (he didn?t dare!) in his gambling habit, and a family banana farm. My mother started to work the farm herself, she did not sell the bananas wholesale but sold them fresh and grilled in the market for she made at least 4 times more. Some of my peers made fun of me about my mother selling bananas because we were considered ?losing face?! My allowance then was Baht 600/mo and I paid the dorms room Baht 200, the rest was for food and school supplies and other necessities, I was in the Triam Udom School with rich and brainy kids. My homeroom teacher and some close friends were aware of my situation and discreetly helped. The help came in the form such as ?It is my birthday today, I need to do a merit, and can I pay for your lunch?? (Some friends used every in the family birthdays to do merit). Or ?My mother cooked too much of this curry so here is an extra for you.? or ?My father is picking me up, we will stop at so-and-so first, then we will drop you off at your dorm, ok?? Or ?We are having a party at my house, come over and stay this weekend. (I went to lots of slumber parties!)? Or ?I went to a stationary store and saw this purple pen, I thought you would like it, you like purple.? Or one of the best excuses ?My sister bought this new dress, the color does not suit her, would you mind taking of her hands so I don?t have to see her wearing it?.

 

I also had an American brother (the son of the family I use to stay with) who then was a Lieutenant in the US Navy, who offered to help. We could not accept that help due to, again our pride. So, he discreetly giving the money to my homeroom teacher and it was filtered to me as a ?grant?, I found out much later about the money, after this ?brother? met his untimely death in the Philippines.

 

I survived the high school with good grades and got into a University by the river in Bangkok, the insurance money were still not processed, the banana farm was not producing enough, my mother had changed from a beautiful woman to a dark-skinned, rough hands, skinny woman who wore only old clothes. But it was always, ?Just study hard Daughter, spend as thriefly as you can but let me know what you need.?

 

I met a young US Air Force, B52 navigator during the first 6 months in the University, he was 7 years older and my first love, and to whom I got engaged. He did offer many times to send me to school but my mother and I refused based on our integrity. I then not much later received a scholarship to study in the USA. The man and I never got married due to my immaturity, long distance and his over jealous nature, but we have been friends and I am grateful to him until today for his sincerity and kindness and always wish him well.

 

To be fair, I need to mention help from some Thais. Most of our relatives and so-called friends just ignored us at best. Some completely stayed away from us, my own uncle for example, for fear of we borrowing money. But one of my father?s distant cousins who has been married to a Chinese businessman came to help. Because of the ?face? concept, her husband borrowed my mother Baht 10,000 (my mother sold some gold) and paid 10% per month, we all knew that he didn?t need that money. He kept paying the 10% per month, which was Baht 1,000 for 6 years; we had to tell him that we didn?t want the money any more. This man, which I, respectfully called ?uncle? lost most of his money in 1998 due to the Thai economy and I lent him $7,500 to get him started a plantain farm (with no interest), just got about $6,000 back due to the currency exchange rate, I have paid my debt of kindness.

 

Ladies and gentlemen, what I think is, the kindness from a Western man seems to be more prevalent than Thais (no flame please). Some of you might say that because I have been around the Westerners than Thais so I don?t know the Thais well. I realize that an average income of a Westerner seems rich for Thai standard, in the US; I think the average salary is $40,000/year. I don?t consider the $40,000/year is rich in the States. Let?s say an average tourist who come to Thailand earns $60,000/year, still some of the Westerners are willing to help the distressed Thai women, I feel it is more than an average kindness. Ok, the love, lust, beauty (the Thai women can not help it), and whatever else are in the equation, still the kindness. Do you feel that an average Westerner is kind or is it something else?

 

 

 

Sorry for the lengthy writing.

 

 

 

Cheers!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[soongmak]

Jasmine,

 

 

 

first let me thank you for your contributions to this board, which I value greatly.

 

 

 

Do I think westerners are kinder than thais? Me, I think not. What happens with a lot of tourists here, is that they see that there is a vast difference between thai and western middle class. Okay, we may not be rich for the west, but most of us realize that we are according to thai standards. We can afford to travel, go on a holiday, ride that car and buy our expensive electronic gadgets. Sure life is more expensive in the west than it is in Thailand, but still most of us are rich compared to the thais (of course excluding thai upper class who can be filthy rich as well).

 

 

 

I think the difference lies in culture shock. We are not used to see the poverty around us, and selfish as most of us are, we are touched by poverty when we see the hardship in person. Most thais have seen it from their early childhood, so they are probably not overwhelmed by it.

 

 

 

When you get involved with people, based on friendship or love, it is just very gratifying to be able to make a difference, I guess that is what drives many people to help.

 

 

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

soongmak

 

 

[Guest]

Jasmine, first of all, I nominate your post for the "post of the year." Thanks very much for sharing the story.

 

 

 

I think there is an element of kindness in the West that is missing in the Orient, that makes people give to others and makes them feel good about it. And I believe this element is at least part of the reason why farang so readily extend financial help to BGs. [Making a difference was the expression I was looking for but Soongmak beat me to it! --MM]

 

 

 

I think there are a lot of guys who help financially fully knowing the score. I hardly call that gullible. But yes, there is a lot of dumb schmucks out there, ranging from "merely gullible" to "beyond help."

[USVirgin]

Hi Jasmine,

 

 

 

Thanks for your perspective.

 

 

 

I'm not really qualified to comment on the generousity of Thais, but it seems to me you have been treated kindly by both Thais and Westerners, the only difference being a matter of scale.

 

 

 

As for kindness vs. gullibility, I agree with the other posts here. I would only add that, for some of us, the act of giving (to a bargirl, for example), even without regard to the money's end use, is a way of making merit too.

 

 

 

Some might call it foolish, but not gullible. In the end, I suppose it's selfish because we are doing it, at least in part, to make ourselves feel good. Sounds like a win-win situation to me;)

 

 

 

I don't believe Westerners are any more or less generous than Thais (or any other peoples) though.

 

 

 

Cheers.

[think_too_mut]

Jasmine, great post!

 

 

 

It kind of reveals how a farang becomes gullible: when he wants to make a difference in tg's life and thinks he's got to deal with someone like you.

 

The less of your qualities that tg posesses, the more gullible (or foolish) the farang is. And other way around I think.

 

 

 

 

[Steve]

I'll echo previous sentiments that yours was a great post. Personally, I think the answer is both. I think you have been around enough western men (and seen the diversity of comments on this board) to know that we run the whole gamut. On the average, I would say we are kind. Men, especially western men, are raised in a culture that says we are caretakers of women. We are the primary 'bread-winners', physical protectors and the head of the family. I think that culture manifests itself in our helping Thai women we meet in LOS. Its especially easier for us to feel charitable due to the seemingly innocent, kind and demure Thai women we come across be they BG or rich girl.

 

 

 

In the bars and gogos, the girls are quick to recognize this and hence your hearing of all the falang send money for sick water buffalo stories that seem so prevalent.

 

 

 

I also think part of it, for some, but not all, is a feeling of guilt for seemingly living a higher standard of living than Thais in general. For some its a way to allay some of that guilt. Its the same type of guilt that fosters social equity laws in our respective countries.

 

 

 

I also think that those of us that grew up poor, had to struggle to get what we presently have are the ones least likely to offer help. Not saying those types are 'jai dam' but that one who pulled himself up by his bootstraps tend to think that if they can others can and at best are skeptical and if they help, its after getting more proof of need than others who entered life at a higher station.

 

 

 

Just my opinion and observations. Its a very inspirational story by the way. It makes one appreciate things and life a bit more.

 

 

 

kop khun krup; chok dee

[check_bin_krap]

Jasmine, thanks a lot for a very interesting post and for sharing your story with us.

 

 

 

I think peoples focus on money and getting rich is stronger the poorer a country is. But kindness and honesty are values which depends a lot on how you are brought up by your parents. These values can be found in every society.

 

 

 

I don't think its always kindness which makes the farang throw away lots of money to a Thai girl. There is a thing called love involved there also. The farang who does this is not automatically a kind person. He can be very stingy in other areas.

 

 

 

Cheers!

[pattaya127]

Thanks for your contribution. I do not want to judge thais or asians against westerners as far as kindness goes. But what i can say is that thru my life, i have always seen the most humble (poor and not rich) people to be the kindest. In France, In USA and in Asia. it maybe that experiencing the hardness of life everyday, they can touch someone's distress closer, and know how little can make a difference. Mainly, i think they are not as encumbered with vanity and possessions, which helps them being selfless and attentive to others. Not a rule, of course, but I have been witness or recipient to it, and also heard such display of kindness in my family history.

[Guest]

Very nice job, Jasmine. What a great story! Thank you, maak maak, for sharing it with us. I congratulate you on your success, in spite of the adversity you faced.

 

 

 

Would you mind sharing how your mom is today, and what her situation is? She sounds like a great woman, which is shown by both her actions to support you, and your love for her. Could not have been easy for her with your father passing away, and two kids to raise.

 

 

 

I did find it interesting that your larger Thai family did not help out to a large degree, when it's said many times here that Thai's care about little else than "The Family" (an exaggeration, I know). And yet, it does seem as though you had many Thai friends (and teacher) who helped you out, finding a way of getting around the 'face issue'. Do you think the help was not as great as might it might have been, because those wanting to help, simply did not have anything to give (as in being poor)? Or did they not help as much as they might have, because of 'face issue', or are other posters mostly wrong to say that Thai's, in general, are "family first", and everything else is secondary?

 

 

 

Anyway, thanks for finally breaking out of your shell, and telling us whom you are. I know you are very busy, as most of your previous posts state. I can now remove the question mark in my mind, when I see a post from you. It's nice to know I can now think, "Hey.....I know her!".

 

 

 

 

 

Note from moderator: Anyone even thinks about flaming this girl in this thread will be dead-meat-on-a-stick. You won't have to worry about me moderating....I'll just let all the other posters here take care of you.....

 

 

 

HT

 

 

[Guest]

Hello,

 

 

 

Just wanted to comment on some numbers. I consider $40,000 a year a hell of a lot of money, here in The Netherlands, minimum-wage is about $13,000 so $40-$60 would be way above average. I myself only get $9,000 a year, which makes me officially poor, but I still manage to get to Thailand

 

 

 

Greetings,

 

Wouter Dijkslag