BelgianBoy Posted January 10, 2002 Report Share Posted January 10, 2002 So, in conclusion all expats are actually saying that we ( the others ) are not entitled to an opinion..... Sorry, that doesn't work for me. Do not forget that you ( the expats ) did choose to live and work in LOS..... I agree with the post from Cent, but I cannot disagree with the other posts either..... then again, I'll visit Los a lot, as I did in the past, but would not want to live there, for the moment. This said, it is a grat post, but leave the shouting out, as grownups would.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Hippie Posted January 10, 2002 Report Share Posted January 10, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Khun Sanuk: Hi, ...As for the overpaying, imagine for a second that hordes of tourists came to your town and started paying double, triple or even more for the stuff you enjoy as well. Wouldn't you get pissed off, and ask them to tone it down a bit? Sanuk! This is exactly what happened in my beloved San Francisco, unfortunately, some of the tourist stayed, formed "dot-coms" bult siiicon valley, and drove the cost of everything skyhigh (homes here are 3 times the national average) "Mom and Pop" stores closed, couldn't afford the rent, the chain stores moved in, and the city lost almost all of it's unique personality. Downtown is now full of tourists, who will pay god awful amounts of money for everything. The result? we, the locals get screwed! So yes, I see the need to try for the best prices when I am in LOS, not just for the sake of the ex-pats who live there, but for the locals as well, if we drive up the prices, then certain items will comand a higher price from the locals, and they will suffer! It did happen here in San Francisco, and it will happen else where! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khunsanuk Posted January 10, 2002 Report Share Posted January 10, 2002 Hi, [Disclaimer - as Cent already mentioned this is a general discussion, so you does not mean Cent, it means you in general. Same for I, most of the time anyway.] Cent, people always complain. Don't you bitch and moan about the weather in Boston all the time as well? You may not have meant all expats when you wrote your piece, but that is how it felt when reading the post. "But doesn't it still beat the shit out of living elsewhere? Or why are you there really? Would you prefer to be back in your country of origin? Or is it you'd just like to get paid like you're working in your home country, while living there in Thailand?" Yes, it does beat the shit out of living elsewhere... at the moment anyway. But that does not mean that this country is perfect, which is the point I am trying to make. "Most of the negative whinebags are retired KS! They don't work. Hell, sometimes I think it's half their problem. They're so bored because they have no hobbies or outlets to occupy themselves. So they sit about complaining and whining to each other about how bad the Thai's are, and flaming on the net just to get their blood circulating a bit and stir the shit up a bit." Kind of like retired people all over the world, right? "Is this the tourist's fault? I don't get where you are going with this, really." No, the wages aren't the tourist's fault, and they are in line with the cost of living here. However, the tourists seem to get upset when an expat explains to them that the currency here is Baht, and not US Dollars, and that they should not pay 3 times the worth of an item/service, just because it is 'so cheap'. Wouldn't you get a bit pissed as well if your town was visited by hords of Japanese who kept saying "Yeah, we know, but it's only xxxxx yen"? "You'd be better off financially to work in the west, and visit the east, until you are financialy able to live there without working," Yes, I probably would, but by making the move to Thailand do I have to give up all my rights of complaining? What I am trying to get at is that there are a lot of people envious of us expats, yet they do not wish to make the sacrifices to join us. And because they see us as privileged, we have no right to complain. After all we are living in 'the promised land', where everything is perfect, and where we choose to live. Remember, you are also making a choice in not leaving your country, yet you do bitch and moan about it constantly. "I doubt they spend the same way when they are at home where they live and work right?" Which is exactly my point. I am certain that if I would go to the US for a 2 week vacation I would spend more than you do in those 2 weeks, and would not complain about the country either. My gripe is not so much with tourists paying / earning more, but rather with them complaining that us expats shouldn't complain about Thailand. "But, they are there by CHOICE." Just as those that are not here, are not here by CHOICE. "Maybe not if you have to work there, and get paid local wages, but it can be quite eden-like if you don't have to work for a living while there, and have enough funds to live at least as well as the Thai middle class and pursue hobbies that make you happy." But wouldn't this hold true for your home country as well? A big part of this 'eden-like' feeling will be due to the fact that you don't have to work, and are financially secure. I am certain that living in the US, drawing 100K a year in interest, beats the hell out of living there working 9-5 for 60K a year, or even 120K. "Most expats have made the choice to move there, to live there, to work there, because originally they thought this is what they wanted." And by doing so, we lose our right to complain? "Actually I don't think a lot of the guys would like to be there permanently, full time year round, or to work for Thai wages while living there." Then when are they telling us not to complain? We choose to live her, but are not allowed to complain. They choose not to live here, and keep telling us we should not complain since we are so much luckier than them for living here. "Sometimes he's actually right ya know!" Yep, and this is one of them Sanuk! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 10, 2002 Report Share Posted January 10, 2002 Rictic, It was the beer talking. I am a very quiet, placid guy normally. 10 Carlsbergs and I am a prat. Kevan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 11, 2002 Report Share Posted January 11, 2002 Kai Your not my long lost twin brother are you??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kohMarco Posted January 11, 2002 Report Share Posted January 11, 2002 this is an interesting thread, I find myself sincerly agreeing with both sides. Sort of depends on the thread I happen to be reading. I may sound a bit cynical, but maybe Thailand is just like New York, in its own way a lot of the enjoyment depends on money. Perhaps the corruption and hassle of living in Thailand gets smoothed out if you've got the coin. But if money were no object, I would take LOS over the states in a heartbeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 11, 2002 Report Share Posted January 11, 2002 Cent; Let the tourists who come here a few times a year stop making any judgements about living in Thailand and having an opinion on the complaints that expats have over this country. You most probably don't know where you're talking about. Being a tourist in a country is not comparable with living here. That's an echoed 'SHADDUP'. Every country has his pro's and con's and you (have to) accept the balance of things for the country you choose to live in. For me the balance of pro's and con's in Thailand is still positive. That does not mean that you have to be happy wilt all aspects of life here. You're just happy with the BALANCE. Must I stop complaining about the horrific traffic in Bangkok, the fact that I have to pay my gabish men to collect my garbish, even when he already gets a salary from the government, the fact that we, AS PEOPLE LIVING IN THAILAND, PAYING TAX IN THAILAND AND CONTRIBUTING TO THE GDP OF THAILAND (Mostly in management positions where we also mentor other Thais to contribute to the GDP of their country) have no rights whatsoever in this country? Of course not! People always complain. YOU complain about living aspects in YOUR country (By calling us lucky fucks that are able to live here, you're actually saying that some of the conditions in the USA are not that terriffic!: "I'll trade places with you any day, as will most any guy here!" ) That life! When I ever meet someone who regularly drives in Bangkok and does not complain about the horrific traffic, selfish behaviour of at least 50% of the private cars, 80% of the taxis and 99.9999% ofthe busdrivers, then I will immediately bring him to the nearest hospial and tell the doctor: "this guy is brain-dead already, please help him to realize this because he's probably too stupid to understand that he's dead". Complaining (Open communication about the problems that our society faces in order to get some relief of the own suffering knowing that others also suffer and initiate in a brainstorming session with total strangers how this monstereous problem could be well be handled by which politicians) is constructive and helps to focus attention on upcoming challenges for the next party to be founded by ousted politicians. And most important: Expats complaining about living in this country keeps wankers out who think it's a paradise here and bitch at us for complaining. We don't have to tell them what's soo good about Thailand, otherwise they would come here too.... Now they're just silly grumpy fucks who after tasting paradise for a few weeks have to leave for their country in order to make more US$ to inject (literally) into our economy next year in order to keep our taxes low. Or you want us to complain about taxes too?? Have a nice day. [ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: think1stbkk ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 11, 2002 Report Share Posted January 11, 2002 We all live entirely different lives, doing different things, most of them are our own choices which are chosen from a range of options that are determined largely by our interests, the amount of money we have, and the amount of time and / or point that we find ourselves at in our respective lives. Cent is entitled to his rant, but I didn't like the tone of having a go at other people because they talked about things that they either liked or didn't like. While he tried to make the point that we are all entitled to our own opinion, he then went on to criticise what other people said, that is criticise other people's opinions. Can't have it both ways Mr Cent so please make up your mind which it will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Central Scrutinizer Posted January 11, 2002 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2002 Khun Sanuk, Some good points you've made! My replies are below. "[Disclaimer - as Cent already mentioned this is a general discussion, so you does not mean Cent, it means you in general. Same for I, most of the time anyway.]" And it will remain the same! Good disclaimer. It should be added to all my posts in the general discussions I think, as I do have a tendency to write my "you's" in a more general audience meaning when replying to posts, rather than meaning the distinct "you" I'm responding to at times. Which may be misconstrued at times. "Cent, people always complain." This is true! Just human nature. And I support every man's right to do so! And retain my god given right to do so myself! :-) BUT, you knew there'd be a but in there didn't you? BUT, and I really wish those involved in this thread would go back and re-read my post a bit before responding, my rant wasn't about a guy complaining. It was about the "CONSTANT" complainers! That 10% who never seem to have a good word to say about anything. As I said, "the negative personalities". Re-read the original post please KS. I was in no way taking a cheap shot at expats. Christ, you know very well I have many good friends who ARE expats. You're one of them! And it is precisely the fact that the are "positive" personalities that I include them in my list of good friends. Example: Mysterious Max, (I think this is his handle here) LongGun and I spent time together in Surin at my house. We didn't sit about complaining and whining about all the things which can drive one mad when living and visiting in Thailand. Could we have? Yeah, I suppose so, and probably could have had a good go at it all too, being frequent knowledgable visitors and/or long time expats I'd say we know all the shit there is to bitch about. But, we aren't the "miserable fucks" that seem to derive no pleasure from life. We had SANUK! Just sitting about chatting and joking and relaxing. My post was directed toward those "anti-sanuk" CONSTANT whiners, bitchers, and moaners. Expat and sanuk tourist alike. A minority for sure, but a vocal minority. "Don't you bitch and moan about the weather in Boston all the time as well?" Well, yeah, but only during the winter when it's cold and snowing! :-) The rest of the year the weather here is quite pleasant! Actually better weather than Thailand's. So, point taken, but not entirely. "You may not have meant all expats when you wrote your piece, but that is how it felt when reading the post." I certainly didn't mean ALL expats, or even most, and don't see where I implied that at all in the original post! I'm sorry you formed this impression while reading it. Maybe I didn't express myself clearly enough. But if this is how you took it I am sorry, you misconstrued what I meant to say. I think some of the expats focused on the words "expat" and "wanker" to the exclusion of all else that was written, and took this as a shot at them. My apologies if this is so. But re-read what I wrote please. "Yes, it does beat the shit out of living elsewhere... at the moment anyway. But that does not mean that this country is perfect, which is the point I am trying to make." Obviously Thailand isn't perfect. No country is. But, and I'm repeating myself here, my post wasn't about Thailand and it's imperfections. It was about the ones who seem to have nothing good to say, ever. I'm not talking about ones right to complain about the problems that can arise when dealing with Thais and a different culture, and all the things that strike us falangs as stupid, foolish, irritating, and downright dangerous and unhealthy. It's those that constantly focus on them to the point of seeming obsession! And if you take out the replies by yourself and the other expats that thought this post was directed at them (it wasn't) you'll see a lot of the guys who responded agree with the post. I read a lot of boards besides this one. I've talked to many tourists and expats in Thailand. And my post deals with that minority, that when you read their posts, and talk to them in person, the negativity they spew and exude just makes you wonder why the hell the person even goes to Thailand, or continues to stay there as an expat. "Kind of like retired people all over the world, right? " Well, no, not really. My parents are retired. They aren't just sitting about whining and complaining all the time. They do things they enjoy, they visit with old friends, (the ones still alive!) they vacation when they can and enjoy seeing their kids and grandkids and great grandkids. They complain occasonally about their infirmities and the pains of old age, but not to the point where you'd avoid visiting them because they were such a downer to be around. In fact they are very pleasant to be around, and I visit them often. My Dad is still one of the funniest guys I know. And he has half a lung cut out from the cancer, and in't in the best of health. My mother has her health problems too, and isn't sitting about moaning all the time. Whereas my ex mother-in-law was a total pain in the ass to visit with. To the point that even her own kids avoided visiting her during her retirement. (And even before actally.) It was just too draining to be around her negativity. I'd have to say most people on here probably have parents and grandparents that are retired, including yourself. Are they all miserable? I think not. It's that small percentage of miserable negative whiners that my post was directed at, and who I said "Please, just SHADDUP" to. "No, the wages aren't the tourist's fault, and they are in line with the cost of living here." Exactly. And most guys know that when going into this move, and adjust their life style and expenditures accordingly. You don't sit about posting negative stuff, as doesn't most every expat here. Most of the expats I know are doing good there, and are happy with their choice to live there, and are very Sanuk people to be around. But hell, yeah, it is always good to get some more money in the paycheck! No matter how much you make, or where you live and work! "However, the tourists seem to get upset when an expat explains to them that the currency here is Baht, and not US Dollars, and that they should not pay 3 times the worth of an item/service, just because it is 'so cheap'." Maybe it depends on the way this lesson is taught sometimes, right? I don't think most Sanuk tourists get upset with an expat trying to teach them the local rates. Most seem to greatly appreciate you fellas taking the time to clue them in, and it helps them spread their vacation cash over a longer period of time, and get the going rate. (Depending on how you do the teaching that is.) But as I said, not every tourist is on these boards and has the chance to even get clued in. Why get upset at a tourist just because he doesn't know, or even care really? Some people aren't raised in a society where bargaining/haggling is part of their culture. They just pay the quoted price, and some HATE bargaining and find it demeaning, and are uncomfortable doing it. Especially when they have the cash to spend, find it ridiculous to waste 10 or 15 minutes, or more, to save the equivelent of a dollar or two when their time there is limited. To them their Sanuk and time are more important than a few dollars saved here and there. It's within their planned budget, they have the dough, and don't really give a shit. The ones that bug me are the ones who jump all over every guy who posts paying more for something than what they consider the going rate. Some of them are downright obnoxious and rude about it on some of the boards. "Wouldn't you get a bit pissed as well if your town was visited by hords of Japanese who kept saying "Yeah, we know, but it's only xxxxx yen"? KS, I live in Boston. There are tons of European and Japanese tourists here during our "high seasons". But here in the USA we post our prices, and you CANNOT bargain most of these set prices down. Except maybe at a flea market. It's not the same as the LOS, and like I said some don't even realize you can haggle when there. Most tourists don't read these boards. They're not used to it, not good at it, or comfortable with it, or patient enough to do it when their pocket is full of greenbacks, and the price quoted to them is so damned cheap in their eyes. Foolish? Maybe so, but then again not everyone has to pinch pennies to get by. Nor have th time and inclination to do so. And, like someone said here in this thread, some of them feel rich with their positive exchange rates, and either feel the big shot when overpaying, and overtipping, (I've seen a lot of that in Nana and the other places!) or truly don't care if they overspend and overpay. They're flush with cash. And if I was a Thai selling these goofs something I'd love them to death! Same for a Bostonian where some flush tourists gives them a tip which is totally out of proportion to the service provided, in their favor. Why should I get pissed off because a fellow Bostonian made out in the deal? I don't hear the Thais complaining about this problem either, just the expats and Sanuk type tourists! Maybe you expats should be happy a fellow Bangkokian was fortunate enough to make some extra baht from some rich overpaying tourist! :-) 55555555555! (Just joking. Jeez you guys can be oversensitive!) :-) "Yes, I probably would, but by making the move to Thailand do I have to give up all my rights of complaining?" Nope. Not saying that at all. It's the constant whiners that I'm talking of. "What I am trying to get at is that there are a lot of people envious of us expats, yet they do not wish to make the sacrifices to join us." I agree. There is some of that. Some do mae the sacrifices you speak of. Problem is some sacrifice too much, and leave themselves in an unenviable position just to be there. I don't envy anyone who lives there that is miserable, in a place which I think can be such a great place to visit, and live, if they'd just have used some common sense and prepared themselves properly for their move over, or holiday there. So that it would be a good experience, instead of a miserable one where they feel the need to complain all the time. Face it. Some tourists and expats don't prepare themselves properly before going. Almost guaranteeing they will have a less than interesting and happy time there. Then they become miserable, try to gain sympathy for their plight, infect those that are susceptable to their negativity around them, and are not pleasant to be around. Whether on a discussion board, or in person. I'm sorry, but to put it bluntly, most of this minority are just damned fools who brought their plight on themselves due to their own ignorance and lack of forethought. "Remember, you are also making a choice in not leaving your country, yet you do bitch and moan about it constantly." Hahaha! Touche! Exactly right. I am taking the steps I need to take to do this properly. Not doing it half-assed and on a wing and a prayer. My bitching and moaning has more to do with the pace this is going, due to the problems right now I'm going through, which you know about. (I could have retired over there four or five years ago, on a smaller amount of money though than I deem necessary to ensure a decent lifestyle for myself, wife, and daughter. Or as a single guy living a Sanuk lifestyle. My choice as you say. True.) Although I don't think I bitch THAT much KS! And should soon end my wait to stay there permanently. :-) I can see no problem with a younger guy just chucking it all for a few years and gaining the experience of living in a foreign land on small money. If I was twenty and knew about Thailand I'd probably do it myself for a few years. But when he chooses to stay there, work a low paying job with little real chance to better his lot, and then starts complaining how much it sucks all the time. Well, it's time for him to go and leave, and get a good paying western job back home, or elsewhere, and work and save to return where he can have a good time living or visiting there, instead of becoming a whining prat too stubborn to leave, and do what needs to be done. And I can see the attraction for an older guy wanting to retire there, especially due to the exchange rates, even if just that, and not the extra added attractions which might incline an older single guy to retire there. But to live there and exist on a barely subsistence pension doesn't sound like too much fun to me. The guy might be better off returning to the west where he can supplement his pension with some part time work, and where he can take advantage of the social network in his home country for his medical and dental needs, and housing and energy needs, and save some money to then return every six months for a six month stay every year, where he can enjoy his time there living off of his pension, and the money he saved. Instead of worrying all the time about every satang he spends. Just my thoughts. "Which is exactly my point. I am certain that if I would go to the US for a 2 week vacation I would spend more than you do in those 2 weeks, and would not complain about the country either." Of course. You're on holiday. "My gripe is not so much with tourists paying / earning more, but rather with them complaining that us expats shouldn't complain about Thailand." I'd just be repeating myself. My answer is above. "Just as those that are not here, are not here by CHOICE." Yes. Or choose to do so in a way where they can live good, and have a good time living or visiting there, without having to worry all the time about their expenses and life style. Planned Sanuk. Everyone makes choices, some good and some bad. But to sit about complaining excessively about something you chose to do, (and directing your anger and bitterness toward the Thais, as a lot of these guys seem to do) and not try to do something to change your lot in life, due to YOUR choice, is irritating to listen to, and negative thinking and behaviour. "But wouldn't this hold true for your home country as well?" Yes. Exactly true. But those that plan ahead and work toward their goals mostly achieve them. Whether it's retirement, vacationing, or living and working in another country. True? Barring unforseen circumstances of course. "A big part of this 'eden-like' feeling will be due to the fact that you don't have to work, and are financially secure. I am certain that living in the US, drawing 100K a year in interest, beats the hell out of living there working 9-5 for 60K a year, or even 120K." Certainly. This is true no matter what your goal. And it's always better to be able to do the things you want to do, rather than that which you have to do. It's always more pleasant. "And by doing so, we lose our right to complain?" Again, nope. Never said that. "Then when are they telling us not to complain? We choose to live here, but are not allowed to complain. They choose not to live here, and keep telling us we should not complain since we are so much luckier than them for living here." Again no. Not what was said, or what the post was about. At least from me. Others may think and say that. Look, KS, I complain. I bitch and moan at times. As you said, it's natural. It's human nature. Everyone gripes from time to time. Life's not perfect. But would you consider me to be a bitter and constantly complaining sort who was no fun to be around? Are my stories always negative? Do I only put out my bad experiences, my gripes about the weird stuff you sometimes have to deal with over there that can drive you nuts sometimes? No. And neither do you, most expats, most tourists, and most of the Sanukers here and on all the other boards. My post had to do with the minority who ALWAYS seem to write about the negatives. The ones obsessed with shit most of us ignore after a while, or deal with, or do something to change whatever it is that bothers us. In a constructive way! I'm talking about those that constantly bitch about the bar girls, the ones that always put down those in relationships with them, the ones who always jump on the poor newbie who writes how much he overpayed, the ones who look down on the Thais, their culture, their peculiarities and customs, the ones who brag about gyping the bar girls and seem so proud of it, the ones who generalize all the time, and spout their negative horse shit as though it's the gospel and only they know the truth and have the true experience as to what constitutes Thailand and Thai women and people, the ones who think their experience of Thailand is the one truth, only truth, the ones who jump with both feet and ridicule the guy who sends money to a bar girl, the ones who obsess and rant about the Japanes paying too much, for Chrissakes just move on to the next girl, or next venue if need be, where their foolishness hasn't screwed up the prices, I mean really, what can you do about this except complain ad nauseum? Learn Japanese and go on their Thai related Sanuk boards and try to explain the going rates to them? Would they listen, or care? The ones who seem to be bullies and miserable shits who seem to be in every thread on a board espousing their negative brand of the truth, and pushing their negative beliefs to the point of nastiness, ridiculing all who think differently from them, those whose experiences are not their own, those that don't buy into their negative generalizations, and dare to speak up. Then they gang up on the poor sod with their ridicule and harrassment, and others don't want to get involved because of not wanting to go through the same bullshit treatment, so they stay silent instead of helping out the guy whose beliefs are actually their own! They are the ones who will always be arguing with someone, always belittling someone, always seeming to be negative, nasty, twats who have never had a positive experience in life, love, relationships, friendships, (other than with other nasty negative twats) etc. Their negativity permeates their posts, and responses to others posts. Defending their negative shit as reality, as if everyones reality has to fit their own. Personally I think their negative attitude draws more negative energy to them, and is one reason why they seem to have had so many bad experiences in Thailand. "Yep, and this is one of them " Yeah, in the context you were talking about. True. But it seems you took the post in a different way then it was intended. :-) Maybe I needed to expand on my thoughts and rant, and fully explain my thoughts and where I was coming from. My fault. Later my friend. Cent p.s. Sanuk! back at ya! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shygye Posted January 11, 2002 Report Share Posted January 11, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Old hippie: This is exactly what happened in my beloved San Francisco, unfortunately, some of the tourist stayed, formed "dot-coms" bult siiicon valley, and drove the cost of everything skyhigh (homes here are 3 times the national average) "Mom and Pop" stores closed, couldn't afford the rent, the chain stores moved in, and the city lost almost all of it's unique personality. Downtown is now full of tourists, who will pay god awful amounts of money for everything. The result? we, the locals get screwed! So yes, I see the need to try for the best prices when I am in LOS, not just for the sake of the ex-pats who live there, but for the locals as well, if we drive up the prices, then certain items will comand a higher price from the locals, and they will suffer! It did happen here in San Francisco, and it will happen else where! It was the locals (residents) in that area that drove the prices up. The downtown area has been full of tourists for years. Long before all this dot com explosion/implosion. There is only a finite amount of land there beween the ocean and the bay. People want to live there so demand grows and the price of property increases. Remember it is your beloved locals that are charging high prices and demanding higher prices when they sell their property. (Although the price for fresh produce is cheaper there than where I live.) Look at Palo Alto, CA the home of Stanford University. A 2 bedroom fixer-upper is $450000. It does not get anywhere near the tourists SF does. But people want to live there so the demand is high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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