Another Sin Sot debate...

[torrenova]

So we already have a couple of posters on this thread who have or will pay sin sot, at least one of them "hoping" that it will be returned

 

At least one other says he will pay for the wedding. Very generous, but who is collecting the envelopes full (or not so full) of cash ?

 

Not really strange that the Thais arguing that people should pay sin sot cannot formulate a rational argument when faced with the fact that western culture dictates the bride's family should pay for the wedding and a whole lot more besides (with the couple keeping any gifts). Somehow they think their culture is far more important which barely disguises their underlying greed.

 

As for the bullshit about recompense because they raised a daughter then it is laughable. Just who raised the groom ?

 

I am glad that there were some dissenting voices but I must remind myself that this conversation was held in OH's backyard and not in Thailand and certainly not involving poor Isaan girls and their families.

[Stickman]

I think many of the reasons that may have once made sin sot valid in the traditional Thailand of times long past no longer exist today.

 

While it is important to respect other people's cultures, I think there are many logical reasons relevant in this day and age why sin sot need not be paid.

 

 

[Old Hippie]

"...am glad that there were some dissenting voices but I must remind myself that this conversation was held in OH's backyard and not in Thailand and certainly not involving poor Isaan girls and their families..."

 

 

Some of the girls who were against Sin Sot, or at least not that hyped about it are from Issaarn and *maybe* some are ex BGs ( at least one has admitted it to some of us), and some are most likely poor farm girls. Some did openly admit they were more than a bit annoyed that their families looked at them and their husbands as just an income and not family. One girl has said many times that she will not send them any money, and that her family does not respect her husband and sees him for money only. I do actually like that girl, and think she is sincere.

 

I did ask "...who raised the groom and what about his parents..." and got the "...that is different..." answer and no explanation as to why or how it is different. Which I expected.

 

"...While it is important to respect other people's cultures, I think there are many logical reasons relevant in this day and age why sin sot need not be paid..."

 

I agree 100% on respecting the girl's culture, however what I usually see happening is a very one sided acceptance of her culture, and little or no acceptance of farang culture, especially by her family, at least in many cases, and as always "...EXCEPTIONS OCCUR..." I also see Culture used as an excuse for many things, when it really is just a piss poor excuse, or more likely a way out of a corner, than a sincere explanation for why some wrong was done. "...oh I did something wrong/bad, but it is my culture to piss on you, and you are wrong for not understanding me, oh I am so hurt that you don't understand..." type bullshit.

 

 

 

[Snowman71]

At my Isaan wedding two weeks ago, I paid for the wedding, I bought 10 baht of gold for my wife and I happily paid 200,000 baht sin sot.

 

On our wedding day we recieved over 60,000 baht in red / pink envelopes.

 

Later that evening, much to my surprise, I was given the full 200,000 back to me via my Wife. This was a totally unexpected action but a rather pleasant one. In my mind, it just goes to show that every situation is different. I was happy to pay what I did because I can afford it.

 

I asked my Wife why she hadn't told me we were to recieve the sin sot back and she just said she wanted to see how much respect I had for her parents and Thai culture in general.

 

I don't think you can say fairer than that, can you ?...

 

Snowman71...

[Old Hippie]

Nope, sounds fair, as you got it back, the following question is maybe irrelevant, but can you tell us your wife's back ground, and what would be expected from a Thai man for such a girl? feel free to ignore the question if it is too personal. I am wondering if it comes down to "the girl's value" or what the guy can afford? In all situations, not just in Thai/Farang weddings.

 

and congrats on the wedding!

[Julian2]

Interesting post on another forum involving Chiang Rai.

Poster claimed that his betrothed's mother had asked for "a seven figure sum" in baht.

Went to explain that the girl was a Hills Tribe's woman in her mid twenties.

He's getting plenty of advice.

 

[Old Hippie]

I have heard of ridicules amounts. What is Tata Young's Sin Sot? Some of us know her dad, and some may even know her future father in law...NO FUCKING WAY THAT GUY WILL EVER FORK OVER THAT AMOUNT IN CASH AND LET THEM KEEP IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All just for show and bragging rights I am sure.

[Mekong]

Replying to no one in particlar, just my own take and personal experiences. I was always anti sin sot for many of the reasons posted by others such as putting a price on a relationship amongst others but since she came from a traditional Thai Family I new the issue of sin sot would come up. Her grandmother only came to Thailand as a child about 85 years ago when her great grandparents moved here so my father-in law is fist generation, there is still a lot of chinese culture to the family.

 

As has been mentioned by others on this board amonst others, sin sot discussions are better done with a close relative than directly with the prestpective in laws so I broached the subject with her fathers brother, fortunatley the wifes uncle is a retired diplomatic envoy who has had postings all oveer the world so his english was good and communication was not difficult and awkward.

 

He explained that nowadays amongst the Thai Chinese that Sin Sot was not ment as a payment, but merely a ceremonial display of relative wealth. Since the Sin Sot is given to the parents at the engagement breakfast the only people who knew what was handed over were relatives and close family friends, and was more of a sign from me to show the soon to be new extended family that I, as an outsider, was able to support one of their own kin. He assured me that once the show was over the money would be back in the bank.

 

After a couple of more chats with him on the subject, and the fact that he had been able to convince me it was all a show I decided to go along with it on started discussing the actual figure that would seem appropriate. Due to the fact my wife had never been married, no kids, a Thammasat Graduate who then went on to do her Masters in the States her family would probably be referred to as "upper middle class" in western society so a figure of 1 Million Baht was agreed upon.

 

The night before the wedding sitting in our room at the Dusit Hotel I was staring at 1,000,000 Baht in fresh new 1,000 baht notes, 100K in each neatly banded budnle of 100 notes, 10 bundles in all asking myself in my mind over and over again if I was doing the right thing. Next morning the cash was taken down to the engagement breakfast and I wondered if I would ever set eyes upon it again.

 

So after the gooing to get the bride, cutting of the gold chains with bribes, anyone who has ever been to a Thai Chinese wedding will recognise this, it was time to hand over the sin sot to my future in laws, as soon as I saw it laid out on the 2 ceremonial platters I could see that there was not 10 bundles there but 15 instead and this took me aback a little. So hand over the sin sot to the in laws, the gifts to relatives and friends, more flash lights going off than I even remember from the old acid house parties back in the UK in the mid 80's and it was getting time to wrap up the morning session.

 

My now sister in law came over and slipped me my bank book and whispered in my ear, don't worry its in the bank as promised, when no one was looking I had a sneaky peep and saw that the previous nights 1,000,000 Baht had been deposited as 1,500,000, by now my head was spinning.

 

As the last guest left I needed a beer, so the wife and I drifted off to the outside bar for a couple of drinks before getting some rest before the main party that evening. The first person we saw was as we call him Loong Diplomat, my now father in laws brother who over a couple of drinks explained how a few of the few elder memebers of the close family had decided to chip in to the tune of 50% of what I had put up to add to the sin sot and give to us as a present in order to give us more respect amongst distant relatives, as we finished our last drink and shook hands to go our respective ways he just said four simple words "Welcome to the Family".

 

You do hear a lot of horror stories about sin sot, and in general I imagine probably over 80% of them are true, hell I used to be a "You will never catch me doing that shite" type of guy, but in some cases it is a genuine ceremonial thing. I suppose it comes down to the person you meet and her background (no I am not bragging or showing off before certain board members chip in) and I suppose that I just got lucky, with all the bad luck I have had to endure in the previous 40 odd years of my life I suppose I was due some good luck at some time or another.

 

And that my friends is my one and only experience on this matter!

[Snowman71]

My Wife is 29 and has two kids, 8 and 10, from a disappeared Thai father.

 

Worked as a FL for 3/4 years. Then met an ex-pat English guy who she was with for some time. Met me reasonably early back into FL scene.

 

I've had nothing but candidness from the Girl since I met her almost two years ago...sometimes a bit too truthful. Whether she turns out to be the exception rather than the rule...who knows ? It's no different if I'd married a British girl in my mind.

 

Fingers crossed though ...

 

Snowman71...

[Old Hippie]

MK,

 

I have had the honor and privilidge of meeting your wife a few times...how the hell did you get a woman like that to even look at you let alone marry you? what ever it is, bottle it and sell it you will make millions!

 

Seriously, what you describe sounds similar to what Chinese people do here. A coworker is an ABC, who married a Hong Kong born girl. He said he had the big banquet to meet her family, sat down with the maternal grandmother and sorted it out. He said he did offer gifts and money, but Grandma was happy to see bank statements and stock portfolios as well, just basically happy to know he wasn't broke. I have heard of similar with the higher end Thai families as well.