Is it Really Worth Making a Trip to Bangkok Now?

[Guest]

Well I think that the sex tourists will stop coming as Bangkok becomes more boring.

There won't be any need to arrest them because they will have moved on.

 

Heck no showing and early closing....if you are a sex tourist why bother coming to Thailand when you can go to plenty of other countries that have cheap pussy that stay open later...

But no worries: increased tourism resulting from publicity about terrorism in the South, the murder of two British tourists by a policeman (who was granted bail) and mandatory urine testing will make up for the difference!

[short-time]

?What makes you think the governments main objective is closing down the farang P4P business??

 

Well, the short answer is that?s just how I see it. Only the passage of time will reveal the true intentions of the current regime and if I?m right or wrong. The long answer follows:

 

You do point out a couple of things that are fertile for discussion, and the fact that Patpong was included as one of the three entertainment zones does (at first glance) seem inconsistent with any sinister plot for the total elimination of Farang orientated P4P nightlife. It would also seem to conflict with cleaning up Thailands image as the worlds oldest whorehouse.

 

So, last I heard the three proposed entertainment zones were: Ratchada, RCA and Patpong. Doesn?t that say something right there? Was it just an oversight that all the Farang entertainment establishments located along the lower end of Sukhumvit like NEP, SC, Washington Square and the rest were left out? I think not.

 

OK, the inclusion of Patpong does seem to be a bit of a paradox with what I suggest. But it just could be that it presents something of a dilemma for Thaksin. Patpong has been around so long it has become something of a landmark, and is now to some extent recognized as a genuine tourist attraction, complete with a busy night market for shoppers.

 

I don?t know about you, but when I visit the ?pong I see more wholesome sightseer types shopping for bargains, backpackers, and old gawkers from Boise on vacation eager for a glimpse of the shameful goings on, than I see punters on the game. Look in any Lonely Planet or similar Thailand tourist guide in the BKK nightlife section and you will invariably see Patpong mentioned. You won?t see much info on its competitors though. Keep in mind PP is not nearly as wild as it once was. The sex shows are long gone and you will be hard pressed to find a bare nipple or for that matter, even a pasty these days.

 

As someone mentioned, the guys in power are not monks and it could be they are willing to accept a certain amount of adult nightlife as good for business. I see it somewhat analogous to Las Vegas and the state of Nevada in the USA. The current rightwing evangelist crusaders in power are willing to leave the place alone and accept it as the sin city that it is - as long as it is kept contained.

 

?The current rules are being enforced on ALL businesses and areas, not just those that are farang orientated?

 

I?m not so sure this is a true statement. I don?t think the crackdowns have been as even handed as you suggest. I have not heard of any raids, bar closings or urine testing taking place in Ratchada. As far as RCA goes, that?s a different ballgame altogether, the shit going down there is largely the result of the Governments other agenda ? the war on drugs and the corruption of its youth.

 

Without going into the similar crackdowns that have taken place in Pattaya and Phuket - which I consider additional evidence of Thaksin?s goal of eliminating Farang P4P nightlife. Let me point out a couple other changes that have taken place since he became PM. And, BTW, let us not forget he ran a campaign with the slogan ?Thai for Thais?. There have been substantial changes regarding visa restrictions for expiates and those seeking extended stays in the Kingdom. Also, I understand it is now more difficult to qualify for a foreign work permit with more restrictions on the way.

 

Well, I do go on, if anyone is still reading this, I guess that about sums up why I see the current Government as being hell bent on stamping out Farang P4P nightlife. Still, I hope I?m wrong.

 

ST

[Guest]

?The current rules are being enforced on ALL businesses and areas, not just those that are farang orientated?

 

I?m not so sure this is a true statement. I don?t think the crackdowns have been as even handed as you suggest. I have not heard of any raids, bar closings or urine testing taking place in Ratchada.

I think you are factually correct (the crackdowns are not even-handed or consistent) and the new zoning rules invite selective enforcement, but I don't agree with your conclusion that it is aimed only at Farang venues.

 

A better model is Chicago in the 1920s, but even that doesn't work exactly. Here, it is a myriad of different vested interests, political groups and mafias excercise control over different police units (themseleves a mix of law enforcers and mafias), all with their own agendas. In most cases - there are a few exceptions - the agenda is money. It can be as simple as "tea money", or advancement to a higher position where the backhanders run into the millions of Baht.

 

Farangs generally don't have the connections to be properly protected, and as the laws become more arcane and easier to violate they will fall prey to predatory groups selectively enforcing the new rules. In the end, this is bad for all of Thailand. In part because it will harm tourism. And in larger part because it will further fuel corruption.

 

This is a text book example of how onerous rules that virtually all businesses will violate in practice and provide opportunities for selective enforcement generate corruption.

[samak]

short-time said:....Only the passage of time will reveal the true intentions of the current regime and if I?m right or wrong.

luckily the current regime will not have enough time left to accomplish this goal!

[..]

short-time said:Patpong...The sex shows are long gone and you will be hard pressed to find a bare nipple or for that matter, even a pasty these days.

Really? Boy I'd better let the gals at Safari know to put their tops on and lose the pasties and that 2nd floor bar (damn I can never remember the name: Queen's 2?) to remain dressed in bikinis and stop putting certain objects where the sun doesn't shine LOL! Should I tell them to increase the price on their B50 happy hour drinkies too?

 

Cheers,

SD

[short-time]

Gadfly,

Interesting comparison you make between the current situation in BKK and Al Capone?s Chicago, corruption and the gang wars over territory that took place during prohibition. Perhaps this is a better model. I didn?t touch on that aspect of the situation because I don?t know how much control the mafias and police have these days in the selective enforcement and shake down of bar owners for ?tea money? and licencining. One thing I should have mentioned though is it could very well be that the reason Patpong was included as a zoned entertainment area was a result of the property owners having better connections in the Thaksin administration and enough muscle and tea money to make it happen, and not the reasons I suggested.

 

You seem to be agreeing with Mentors though in that as the various bars are forced to close down due to the crackdowns and lack of business, they will be bought up and re-opened under ?new management?. I just can?t go along with this theory and maintain that once the various sex tourist gogos and P4P joints are shut down they won?t be re-opening. Using your Old Chicago analogy, I see it more like Elliot Ness and the not so Untouchables hitting town and cleaning the place up.

 

Suadum,

Yes, I think the upstairs one is Queen's Castle 2, not sure anymore though as the King?s group have been shuffling their bars around. And you are correct, the girls in Safari still wear pasties and as far as I know always have. Safari remains one of my favorite ?pong bars ? guess I got a little bit carried away trying to make a point.

 

ST

[bibblies]

I don't see why the other bars don't try pasties. The ground floor Kings Group bars used to do it. Why don't they now?.

 

What are the exact boundaries? I wouldn't mind non-showing if showing only meant not seeing the nipplies.

[Guest]

>>>One thing I should have mentioned though is it could very well be that the reason Patpong was included as a zoned entertainment area was a result of the property owners having better connections in the Thaksin administration and enough muscle and tea money to make it happen, and not the reasons I suggested. <<<

 

 

 

 

it is not just patpong in the entertainment zone - it's silom/suriwong with all its entertainment sois. patpong is just one of 'em.

 

a lot of people here in the debate IMHO do overvalue the crackdown being mainly targetted at farang zones. at least here in bangkok the farang oriented areas are miniscule, in terms of money and size, compared to the thai nightlife, which is dealt with far stricter.

the political reasons for the crackdown are a bit different. a major fraction of popular support in the TRT is the conservative right and left. by performing that social order crackdowns thaksin is placating them. and, it is a populistic kneejerk reaction to existing social problems in thailand (which actually reached the opposite and only allevated those problems).

 

the direct moneys made from the nightlife, especially is compared to the "clean" businesses such as all sorts of government contracts, industry etc., is completely inconsequencial. the movers and dealers of the top tire here might have certain interests in the nightlife, but they are the tinest parts of their empires. there is no top level conspiracy to take over the farang owned bars. there is no logic in it.

 

if you speak with low and midranked cops - they rarely agree with the early closures, and that has little to do with perceived losses of teamoney. their main concern is that since the strict enforcement of the early closing hours street violence has risen again, their jobs made far more dangerous and difficult.

 

to understand those crackdowns one has to have a closer look at the internal structures of the TRT, a conglomerate of all sorts of vested interests with constant internal powerstruggles. to keep that from spilling over too much thaksin has to juggle all those fractions, give here a bit, take there some away, constant compromises to be able to keep on top.

through that he made enemies of some very powerful fractions, and his populistic finance policies resulted in a new bubble economy.

 

the early closing hours and moral crusade have to be seen in context with those political games.

[Guest]

You seem to be agreeing with Mentors though in that as the various bars are forced to close down due to the crackdowns and lack of business, they will be bought up and re-opened under ?new management?. I just can?t go along with this theory and maintain that once the various sex tourist gogos and P4P joints are shut down they won?t be re-opening. Using your Old Chicago analogy, I see it more like Elliot Ness and the not so Untouchables hitting town and cleaning the place up

To borrow part of a line from a vice presidential debate a few elections back, "Khun [fill in name of appropriate government minister] is no Elliott Ness." (The earlier part of this line doesn't work for me since, while I am on the wrong side of 40, I am not quite old enough to have known Elliott Ness.)

 

I actually find myself in agreement with FlyW on this one. There was a very good article by Chang Noi in The Nation several years back where he (or she or them) said TRT consists primarily of three groups: (1) major business interests that benefit from government protection and concessions (and therefore didn't like the markert liberalization measures of the last government); (2) social activists (who saw economic globalization as a threat and were therefore easily manipulated by group no. 1); and (3) social conservatives (who saw cultural globalization as a threat and were also easily manipulated by group no. 1). Chris Baker and Khun Pasuk offer a similiar analysis in their book on Thaksin.

 

Group no. 2 has become increasingly disenchanted with TRT; you will see evidence of this in this weekend's Bangkok Post and The Nation. The article about Khun Chamlong is particularly telling.

 

TRT may be compelled to pander even more to group no. 3 as its popularity diminishes. In listing the risks to TRT at a British Chamber talk several months ago, Chris Baker and Khun Pasuk mentioned a challenge by arch social conservatives.

 

I think there is a limit to how far TRT can go in pandering to social conservatives when you look at who is in TRT. And this is why I am actually not all doom and gloom about Thailand's nightlife. I view the future as uncertain, and highly volatile over the next few months as we approach the February elections.

[Guest]

>>>said TRT consists primarily of three groups: <<<

 

 

that was for me pretty much evident in the recent bangkok elections where TRT had three (or, according to some, four) covered candidates:

 

1) paveena - darling of the social activists

2) chalerm - old boy of croony politics

3) manu (or mana, can't really remember his name) - chamlong's boy, social conservatives

4) bichit - some say that he is TRT, but i am not sure, and he's anyhow of no consequence nowadays