Time for the US to take action against.... themselves?

[DSbadger]

>" Isreal...right to exist? Hmmm, wasn't this also the result of UK/USA intervention? Ok in one case, not another? I have no real clue, but How many "Isrealis" are actually from the region? "Ethnically), and how many came from Europe and other countries? Does seem sort of fucked up that 1-2 countries 1/2 a world away can decide it is o.k. for one group to go and take over another country because it was promised to them in the bible...Odd that some accept biblical theory in some cases, but not others...>"

 

Now who did I say didn't have a right to exist?

[Old Hippie]

Yeah, I think it cuts the time down, tons of Filipinos do it. They just can't hold a "sensitive" position until they are citizens.

 

Of course the logical question is how hard would a "mercenary" army fight for a country that isn't theirs? Or when they/theirs has no real interest in the outcome?

[Old Hippie]

>" Isreal...right to exist? Hmmm, wasn't this also the result of UK/USA intervention? Ok in one case, not another? I have no real clue, but How many "Isrealis" are actually from the region? "Ethnically), and how many came from Europe and other countries? Does seem sort of fucked up that 1-2 countries 1/2 a world away can decide it is o.k. for one group to go and take over another country because it was promised to them in the bible...Odd that some accept biblical theory in some cases, but not others...>"

 

Now who did I say didn't have a right to exist?

 

 

You didn't say they DIDN'T have a right to exist. You said "...1. Israel has the right to exist. They should be getting their little fannies back to the '67 boarders, but they have a right to exist..."

 

I am just raising the question of if they really do have a "RIGHT" to occupy that land, simply because the bible says they do. I am also pointing out that the UK and maybe the USA played a part in the creation of Isreal. Many argue the motive was not biblical at all, but rather a way of dealing with an influx of Jewish immigrants into the UK and the USA post war.

 

I do agree, that if they went back to the 1967 borders, that would be a start to a compromise.

[Flashermac]

<< How many "Isrealis" are actually from the region? "Ethnically), and how many came from Europe and other countries? >>

 

I think the Sephardic Jews -- refugees from Muslim countries for the most part -- now are the majority in Israel, though the recent immigrants from the former USSR may have changed that.

 

The state of Israel was created by a UN Resolution on 14 May 1948, following the acceptance of the Partition Plan of 29 November 1947. Palestine was accordingly divided on ethnic lines (as much as possible) into a Jewish state and a Palestinian state. The Arab nations refused to accept partition and promptly attacked to destroy the Jewish state ... and lost. Israel was admitted to the UN on 28 May 1949. Israel has signed peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan. Sounds like some folks think Israel has a right to continued existence.

 

From the Wikipedia:

 

"Estimates of the final [Palestinian] refugee count range from 400,000 to 900,000 with the official United Nations count at 711,000."

 

"Immigration of Holocaust survivors and Jewish refugees from Arab lands doubled Israel's population within a year of independence. Over the following years approximately 850,000 Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews fled or were expelled from surrounding Arab countries and Iran. Of these, about 600,000 settled in Israel; the remainder went to Europe and the Americas (see Jewish exodus from Arab lands)."

 

" In 2006, Israel was ranked 23rd out of 177 countries in the United Nations Human Development Index, the highest ranking in the Middle East and third highest in all of Asia."

 

"Twenty-four percent of Israel's workforce holds university degrees, ranking Israel third in the industrialized world after the United States and Netherlands. Twelve percent hold advanced degrees."

 

"Israel has two official languages: Hebrew and Arabic."

 

"According to Webometrics, of the top ten universities in the Middle East, seven out of ten are in Israel, including the top four. The Hebrew University of Jerusalem is the only university in the Middle East ranked in the Webometrics premier top 200 of the world."

 

 

 

[Old Hippie]

Ok my point here is this, we say the bible shouldn't be believed in many cases...yet, the foundation of the creation of Isreal, is the biblical beliefe that this is their "promised land" is it not? So if we want to discuss/question the great flood/noah's ark, then why not question this as well?

[Flashermac]

The Muslims insist that Jerusalem is really theirs because Muhammad is supposed to have flown there on a magic horse or flying carpet or something. They built a huge mosque on the site of King Solomon's temple. Both sides are nutters when it comes to religion, but at least the Israelis I know are not very religious. (Some are even Buddhists!)

 

And as I've said before, the Jewish refugees from Arab lands were all resettled decades ago. Yet the Palestinian refugees have been kept as refugees for political reasons by the Arab states.

 

On the one hand, you've got Bush believing Israel fulfills a biblical prophecy and can do no wrong. On the other, you've got Ahmadinejad seriously believing the third mahdi (or whatever) is soon going to rise from a well in Iran, accompanied by Jesus -- who will then curse the Christian world for not believing what Muhammad said.

 

How do loonies like these get into positions of power in the 21st century???

 

 

 

 

 

[DSbadger]

I do not, and have not found Isreal's right to exist in the bible. I have believed that Isreal should exist because of the 1948 resolution.

 

And in your responce before you stated.

 

>"Ok in one case, not another?"<

 

What did you mean by that?

[Old Hippie]

Ok, I explained that earlier...er I thought...Basically, the claim to Palestine by the Isrealis is Biblical. The treaty/UN deal is somewhat based on this claim. Hence, I was saying in some cases, we (not specifically you) disregard the bible, such as the claims of creationism and the flood etc (maybe I should say the corrupted interpretations of the bible by Fanatics?) so why allow it to play a part in all this?

 

Yes, all people have a right to exist, the question is, does the UN (at the time headed mainly by USA and UK) have a right to push people out of their homeland, and push a new group in? Especially if many of them are not even from that region to begin with?

 

As Palestine is the Biblically "Promised land" this argument was used to decide where to settle these people when other countries didn't want them. There is no denying anti semitism played a part in immigration and foreign policy. This religious claim was used to help influence the decision. Hence, if we want to accept one part of the bible why not all? if we want to disregard one part why not all? Raised as a topic of discussion more than anything else.

[Fidel]

 

Do you really feel that women should not go to school, and should be subservent to men in everyway? And all of the other, obvious misinterpretations of the Koran.

 

...when Iran says that Israel is a one bomb solution, they actually mean it.

 

 

Ok, obviously you're confusing Iran with some other country when it comes to women. Wikipedia has a great section on women in Iran:

Link

 

With regard to your "one bomb solution" statement.. when did the Iranians EVER say this?

[Flashermac]

There had been earlier proposals to create a Jewish state elsewhere (e.g. Madagascar), and even Hitler originally desired to send the European Jews wherever it might be. But the Zionists themselves had decided on the ancient homeland. They were BUYING the land from the Arabs, prior to the 1948 war. Israel might well have come into existence if the Holocaust had never happened. But the Holocaust certainly helped create it.

 

p.s. A Muslim friend once explained to me that Muslims didn't really care if the Jews had their own country. But they didn't want it where it was, since they claim the Jewish prophets and Jesus as their own and consider the "holy land" holy to them too. When you consider the number of Indian Muslims who lost their homes in the partition of India, the number of Palestinians displaced seems rather small. But these Inidan Muslims have long ago become Pakistanis and have no desire to return to their former homes. The Muslim world is pissed off over Palestine for religious reasons.