some bad news for Farang house owners

[Central Scrutinizer]

Wouldn't having/requiring a life/mortgage insurance take care of this little problem? For Thais as well as farang/thai marriages when buying a home? I don't see what the nationality of one partner in the marriage buying the home has to do with anything. They either qualify for the loan, or they don't. They are legally married and if fiscally sound and a good risk there should be no problem. Sounds more than a bit discriminatory, but hey, discrimination is the in thing here isn't it? Have they had problems with many farang running off after buying a home in Thailand with the wife? I wonder!

[cavanami]

Yes, mortgage insurance, very common in the USA as the bank wants to be sure they get their money!

The insurance covers death, disability, etc.

[Central Scrutinizer]

Hell, from what I have seen here the Thais need this more than any one else. They are dying at rates much higher than old farang married men. I've been to FAR more Thai funerals (young and old) than I ever have been to funerals in the states/back home. The banks here should require this life/and mortgage insurance for anyone wanting to buy a home here with a loan. Especially if they drive a motorcycle here as a basic means of transport daily.

[khunsanuk]

Hi,

 

I gave this some more thought last night and I think the reason for the break up (divorce, death, whatever) should be irrelevant. It is the fact that one of the 2 parties goes away that matters.

 

And the problem isn't so much the wife being left behind and not being able to afford the payments by herself, but rather that while the other party (i.e. the man) is likely able to continue making the payments by himself, he is not allowed to own the property if he is not Thai.

 

So, if a Thai-Thai couple divorce, the chance is still reasonable that either of them can afford to keep the house. If the couple is Thai-farang though, the part of the couple most likely to be able to afford to keep the house isn't allowed to. Hence a bigger risk to the bank.

 

I guess I can see this from the bank's point of view, but it still comes down to discriminatory laws that prevent a foreigner from owning land.

 

Sanuk!

 

[rchapstick]

oops ... edited to remove redundant comment

[Gadfly]

Again, if a person cannot produce the documents when registering a company, then they will not allow it to be registered. They donâ??t have to define â??nomineeâ? all they have to do is define what you have to produce to not be able to register.

 

Seven quick points so that we don't lose the plot here:

 

1. Where is the law that even refers to a prohibition on "nominee" ownership? If there is no such law, why are they even permitted to require Thais to produce these documents?

 

2. Defining a "nominee" in terms of what the Land Department decides, on a clearly ad hoc basis, that you are obliged to produce to prove you are not a nominee is dangerous. I may come back to this later, but just hold that thought for now.

 

3. If there is no law even describing in general terms what constitutes an illegal nominee, then the Land Department can retroactively change the requirements and invalidate title deeds if a Thai-foreign couple cannot meet any new requirements it decides to impose. The retroactive imposition of new sanctions and restrictions on foreigners is a perennial problem in Thailand.

 

4. Now keeping the points made above in mind, go back to the original post and look at what the General Director said. He was pretty clear: if the Thai spouse doesn't have the funds herself, but the foreigner supplied the funds for the transaction, it is unlawful. He didn't say anything about an exception for foreign spouses signing disclaimers. That was not an accident.

 

5. In practice, in Phuket, they are hassling Thais married to foreigners (and even some unmarried Thai women) for evidence that they have enough funds to acquire property even when the foreign spouse disclaims any interest in the property. The basic question is: where did she get the money? That is exactly what the DG of he Land Department said.

 

This is particularly true if there is a lease-back or the women appears to be of modest means, like, say, a BG. The basis: she is poor, and she is functioning as an illegal nominee. This is what the Land Department DG was talking about.

 

6. If they are going to do this, we need to ask at least two questions: First, what provision of the land code even refers to illegal nominees? Second, what is the definition of an illegal nominee?

 

And no, you cannot define "nominee" in terms of the paperwork the Land Department decide is required to estabish you are not a nominee. That makes no sense at all.

 

7. For reasons that have been explained before and will make this post too long, exisiting Thai law doesn't recognize the concept of nominees or, to state this more precisely, the law doesn't recognize the concept of ownership of property in trust for another. You need this to start declaring parties "nominees" the way they are, and because Thai law doesn't have it, they simply can't do it in a legitimate fashion. (I will give the CCC section if you want it.) Instead, they are making up the rules as they go along. This is a serious problem that goes beyond land ownership.

[ThaiHome]

I think I have more then answered your continued question on defining "nominees" in Thai law. If you don't understand what I am saying, there is no point in me saying it again and again.

 

It seems the Land Dept Director has given another interveiw, in an attempt to clarify what he was quoted as saying before:

 

Two major points he makes:

1. There is no new law or changes in enforcement of existing law.

2, The Thai wife of a foreigner can purchase land directly as long as statement confirming it is not joint property is signed.

 

These have been the two points I have been making through this entire thread.

 

TH

 

 

No witch-hunt, says Lands Department

 

By: KANANA KATHARANGSIPORN

Published: 15/06/2009 at 12:00 AM

Newspaper section: Business

 

The Lands Department does not have a policy to scrutinise acquisitions in which illegal use of Thai nominees on behalf of foreigners is suspected, says director-general Anuwat Maytheewibulwut.

 

"Each year there are 5.5 million land-related transactions handled by the department and we receive around 1,000 complaints," he said. "We have no time to check every transaction, but we will investigate when there's a complaint."

 

Mr Anuwat was responding after several sharp letters in the Bangkok Post over the past two weeks from readers who questioned the department's policy on land acquisition by foreigners. Some alleged it was xenophobic.

 

He said it was likely a misunderstanding that the department would scrutinise every transaction suspected to have a Thai nominee owning land for foreigners. In fact, an investigation will be initiated only if there is a complaint.

 

"There is nothing new in the Land Code for land acquisition by foreigners," he added.

"For purchases or transfers, we have some regulations and processes to investigate illegality, but not that many. We must respect individual rights and assume individuals will not give fake statements to officials."

 

According to the Land Code, a foreigner can legally acquire land by inheritance as a legal heir, and his or her land ownership must be approved by the Interior Ministry.

 

Alternatively, a foreigner must invest at least 40 million baht and maintain it for five years through investment in Thai government bonds, property mutual funds, or in share capital of a Board of Investment-promoted company.

 

Under these two criteria, a foreigner can purchase up to one rai of land for residential use. The department also allows foreign ownership up to 49% of saleable space in a condominium, said Mr Anuwat.

 

If a foreigner has a Thai spouse, either legitimate or common-law, and wants to buy land, the Thai spouse must give officials of the Lands Department a joint written confirmation that the money for the purchase is wholly separate property or the personal property of the Thai spouse, not jointly acquired property.

"If a foreigner has a conflict with his or her Thai spouse and makes a complaint on land ownership to the department, we will investigate," said Mr Anuwat. "If we find the ownership is illegal, we will ask them to transfer or sell that piece of land within 180 to 365 days."

 

If the transfer or sale cannot be made within a year, the department will use its authority to do it. Any legal dispute between the couple not involving land ownership must be resolved under civil law.

 

"Changing foreign land acquisition regulations such as an extension of the leasehold period to longer than 30 years or increasing foreigners' quotas to buy condominiums is a government matter. The department is always ready to carry out the government's policy," Mr Anuwat said.

 

He added that all foreigners who comply with the law will get full protection under the law.

 

"For anyone involved in land ownership on behalf of foreigners, what they should be sure of is concern for the nation, ethics and morality in applying the law to make sure they are good Thai citizens," he said.

 

 

[khunsanuk]

Hi,

 

Thanks for posting that and clearing this up.

 

This one is new to me though:

"According to the Land Code, a foreigner can legally acquire land by inheritance as a legal heir, and his or her land ownership must be approved by the Interior Ministry."

 

I was under the impression you had to sell it off within a certain period (1 year?).

 

"Alternatively, a foreigner must invest at least 40 million baht and maintain it for five years through investment in Thai government bonds, property mutual funds, or in share capital of a Board of Investment-promoted company."

 

This one is of course outside the realm of possibilities for the vast majority of farangs.

 

Sanuk!

 

[Faustian]

Dang, now where did I leave that 40 million...I knew it would come in handy..

[CTO]

Personal Property - i.e. the Farang gave to her and is her's now? Hope that works