Guest Posted January 28, 2002 Report Share Posted January 28, 2002 Farangdang, Old Hippies comment about an unwarranted attack was towards Coltlongbone. Didn't mention you. I agree with Old Hippies comments that coltlongbone's post didn't add anything to this thread wheras Roger's has. Roger may have contributed to other threads, but not yet to this one. He did throw out some (IMO) very judgemental comments about bargirls and their customers which I and others took issue with. Coltlongbone's comment was much clearer and too the point. He was defending his right to choose to hang out with bargirls and visit "whore" if he so chooses; which Roger was clearly disparaging. Farangdang, you state, "I would encourage people of all views to post here, but only if they're open to honestly debating the topic." Then you express that you have more respect for fredCunty who says all women are whores. Given this (in my view, very close minded) position there is no honest open debating. There is only stating of positions and shoveling of kee back and forth. Maybe one of the reasons I'm capable of enjoying being with bargirls, but not let it consume me, is that I can enjoy just hanging out and bullshitting, not taking things too seriously and not having deep conversations. AND I can separate that from other intellectual pursuits. I love a good debate, but I don't try to debate with every bargirl and punter that I come across. But, if someone stands up and attempts to put forth reasoned arguments that I think are wrong, I'll be glad to point out the flaws and hypocrisy. Plus, I get the feeling that fredCunty could kick my ass, but Roger I could probably run away from Farangdang, I also think you knowingly unfairly stated that Roger is not interested in the nightlife. Who isn't interested in the nightlife. Roger is stating that he's bored with the BG scene (which is just PART of the nightlife). This is a form of sophmoric rhetoric and twisting of words that Roger previously alluded too. This board offers quite alot with regards to nightlife disregarding the bg scene. Is equating Roger's boredom with BG's to Roger's total disinterest to nightlife honest discourse? Who is not being honest here? The main reason for this boards existence (and relative success), is not because somebody asks about a Jazz bar once every 500 posts. As I very clearly said, Roger does not seem to be interested in constructively adding to the main topic of this board, but I encourage him to add his comments about other nightlife. I think we would all love to hear about his experiences with "normal" Thai women (or perhaps stories about a "friend" of his, if he is concerned about privacy), or reviews of regular bars and restaurants. I haven't been tracking every post of his, but I haven't seen that stuff yet. Farangdang, you state, "Sorry, I can't help it if you don't say what you mean or can't express your views clearly." When you take Roger's words out of context, there is no debate. You are not reading what Roger is writing, or not arguing against his words. You are arguing against your interpretation. Not quite logical. You seem bent on winning the "argument" than truly contributing to a lively conversation. I can't very well include all his posts in every one of mine. The entire thread is here for everyone to read and make their own judgements. It is quite logical to isolate individual statements to show that they are absurd or contradict other statements. It is also quite logical to take someones words and disprove them by using analogy or finding an exception. If you make the ridiculous statement: "before you tell me that you can not tell the difference between a hooker and a “normal” girl…you can! You can dress a BG up in the latest Paris fashions but to the trained eye she is still a BG and always will be" you should be prepared to back it up or retract it. That statement is clearly so wrong in so many ways, yet as far as I know Roger has not done anything to clarify or prove that statement. If you think I've twisted Roger's words please point out an example. If anything it has been the other way around, with Roger assuming that I wanted to spend the rest of my life hanging out with whores or that I was looking for a long-term relationship with one. I don't need to be proven right, but if Roger posts other comments claiming all Thai bargirls are "whores" and implying they are unworthy of any respect, and that people who like hanging out with bargirls or go to MPs are somehow beneath him, then I will continue to respond. Of course, if the moderators ask me to back off, I will, they do a pretty good job and I would respect their decisions. [ January 28, 2002: Message edited by: FarangDang ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 28, 2002 Report Share Posted January 28, 2002 Farang Dang Your choice of the name "Roger" in you story does seem to make it a personal attack. Roger is correct in that if you live here long enough you will get bored with whores, hookers, bar, girls what ever name you wish to attribute to them. I go in bars to meet friends, occassionally bullshit with the girls. I get a perverse pleasure pretending that I'm a tourist when some pushy bargirl starts giving me the What your name , you buy me cola routine, you here better lines of a TukTuk driver trying to get you to go to a gems store. When after 10 or so minutes they realise I'm bullshitting them the same as they are me is priceless, specially in that after 1-2 minutes I start slipping in a bit of Thai, until after we wind up talking only in Thai for the reminder of the time. Some people on here seem to have their heads up their backsides regarding bar girls. Back home they would never tolerate bad behaviour off a girl, tart, slut, hooker, whore, pick whichever category you want, and then make excuses for her behaviour. If you got the same bullshit off anyone back home you'd tell them to fuck off, so why accept bad behaviour here? By the same measure, these girls would never try the same behaviour with a Thai so why do it to you, pure and simply a total lack of respect for you. You in this is meant as a general you, not at an individual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 28, 2002 Report Share Posted January 28, 2002 Old Hippie said quote: this thread has deteriorated into name calling and petty bickering. and in the very next post GummiGuts said quote: Then you express that you have more respect for fredCunty who says all women are whores. Given this (in my view, very close minded) position there is no honest open debating. There is only stating of positions and shoveling of kee back and forth. LMAO!!! But seriously, I dont think you actually digested anything I said there Gummiguts, so let me spell it out for you............ Roger and FarangDang were arguing the about bargirls being prostitutes etc.... I wanted to understand FarangDangs definition of prostitute, so he described his definition and I described mine( In any debate this is what youd do first). Because I didnt quote him line for line and analyse his every miniscule point and then make personal attacks, but instead simply stated life experiences of mine that form the basis of MY opinion by only "stating [of] position " is maybe a form of debate you might not be familiar with. Just because I didnt break everything he said down,instead 'bouncing' off him does not mean we werent exchanging legitimate opinion/trying to change one anothers opinions on these matters. I suggest you re-read these posts, and comprehend the finer points of debating. As for me being close minded I suggest you re-read my post and thouroughly digest it.I dont want to insult your intelligence but to save me whole lot more posting I'll explain my self here.I was describing how everyone in life is forced to do things they dont want to do , but our society takes a 'moral' stance when it comes to women and prostitution, condemning men as the scum of the earth for patronising women in this profession.Its like sleeping with a fat old stranger is the worst thing in the world and these women are left emotionally scared for life...Boohoo. I can think of alot of worse things to do than fuck old women all day. What about Men doing hard labour for bosses who are arseholes? Im sure after a few years of that there are emotional scars, if there wasnt then we would have a pretty stable workforce, and there would be no need of trade unions or awards. ANd I wasnt making the point that ONLY women are whores, but we are all whores, in the fact that we do things we dont want to do for money in order to survive in this society. My absolute point being if we are all whores then women who sleep with men for money are no different than 'Joe blow the dirty coal miner'. They should recieve no more/no less sympathy for the sideeffects of their profession than 'Joe blow the coal miner' gets for his.They should be treated with no more/less respect than 'Diggity Daz the sales executive for Toyota'. Its really a case of treating others the way you would have them treat you. As Farangdang stated earlier and I wholeheartedly agree with him, is that "there is no fine line between good and bad", I added its all personal choice and good judgement, on who you choose to spend your time with. Todays society brings women up to twist men around thier little finger, the first man being their fathers.They are taught from day one to use their sexuality as tool for getting what they want, so it is in their whole make up to manipulate men, Im just saying there are women who use this to differing degrees, and its all a matter of your rapport and dynamic which determines compatability. We are all whores at some time or other in the fact we do things that we do things that for money that are 'morally' indignant. To anyone who disagrees, have you paid tax lately? Ever had the feeling you were unfairly treated at work? ever? if you can answer no then it must be pretty lonely up there on your pedestal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 28, 2002 Report Share Posted January 28, 2002 Damn, I think of myself as open-minded and yet I just assumed fredCunty was just your average Australian drunken punter. Turns out he's a philosopher genius. Plus he's the first person on this board who's managed to spell "rapport" properly I know a lot of you are jaded, but continuing this philosophical discussion with half-naked dancing girls on stage and a cute bargirl by my side still sounds pretty damn appealing to me. fC, if we were both in Thailand now, you wouldn't be buying your own drinks tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 28, 2002 Report Share Posted January 28, 2002 Cheers FarangDang! I did win the cooks hill primary school spelling bee in 1982 And free beers are always good mate! Ta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 29, 2002 Report Share Posted January 29, 2002 Farang Dang Your choice of the name "Roger" in you story does seem to make it a personal attack. When composing the message I actually removed the name at first, but then added back figuring it would be better to be completely transparent. It was not what I call a personal attack; I didn't call Roger stupid, ugly, fat, bald, insult his mother, girlfriends etc. It was a valid exercise to point out his hypocrisy, which he refused to address. I'll go back and remove the "Roger" if that makes everyone feel better. Roger is correct in that if you live here long enough you will get bored with whores, hookers, bar, girls what ever name you wish to attribute to them. I go in bars to meet friends, occassionally bullshit with the girls. If you do enough of anything you can learn to get bored or jaded. I'm sure Tommy Lee got a little tired of banging Pamela Anderson after a while, too. But even you still enjoy going out to bars and bantering with the ladies a little bit. I can understand if you say YOU are bored with bargirls for whatever reason, but I hope you are not defending Roger, because I refuse to believe that of all the bargirls out there, there are none who are at all interesting to talk to. I've only been to Thailand 8 or 9 times, but I've found plenty of girls who could say more than "You hansum man" and "Farang have big nose". The more Thai I learn the more interesting many of them become. To claim that all bargirls are boring, uninteresting people is really demeaning and elitist. If someone says that, they must also be saying that all lower class Thai are boring, since bargirls are really no different (if anything, the act of working in a bar makes them more interesting). This characterization also demeans all the farang who have happily married or have long-term relationships with former bargirls, farm girls, dept. store workers, .... Roger effectively said that all bargirls are whores and that's all they'll ever be and that they make unworthy girlfriends or wives. That is NOT just taken out of context or twisting his words. Some people on here seem to have their heads up their backsides regarding bar girls. Back home they would never tolerate bad behaviour off a girl, tart, slut, hooker, whore, pick whichever category you want, and then make excuses for her behaviour. If you got the same bullshit off anyone back home you'd tell them to fuck off, so why accept bad behaviour here? I'm not sure what you mean here. Clearly you have to consider the culture and economic circumstances. If you give me a specific example, I can give you my thoughts. By the same measure, these girls would never try the same behaviour with a Thai so why do it to you, pure and simply a total lack of respect for you. Well, that's one way to look at it. But I don't think bad behavior in Thai men justifies bad behavior in Farang. In reality, Thai women treat us somewhere in between how they would treat a Thai husband and how a Farang wife would treat us. It's a fine compromise that makes everyone happy (well, happier, anyway). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gummigut Posted January 29, 2002 Report Share Posted January 29, 2002 Faradang: I'm not taking issue about statements like, "Roger effectively said that all bargirls are whores and that's all they'll ever be and that they make unworthy girlfriends or wives." From his statements, I can see where you can conclude this. What I am taking issue is specifically taking things out of context. As I POINTED out, Roger's statement about boredom with the bg scene does not mean he is disinterested in nightlife as you indicated. The bg scense is only part of the nightlife. This is just an example. Yes, I feel Roger's words may be a bit inflexible, but then address them. If you debate so well, then you wouldn't have to make these type of stretches. I didn't bother debating the points because it's useless as we are on two different sides, but I can point out illogical parts of your argument and extending Roger's words in the case sited previously is just one point. Fredcunty, you state, "ANd I wasnt making the point that ONLY women are whores, but we are all whores." Your world and my world are so different that there is no point in even starting a discussion. lol. <<burp>> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 29, 2002 Report Share Posted January 29, 2002 quote: Originally posted by gummigut: Faradang: What I am taking issue is specifically taking things out of context. As I POINTED out, Roger's statement about boredom with the bg scene does not mean he is disinterested in nightlife as you indicated. The bg scense is only part of the nightlife. This is just an example. I'm going to respectfully disagree with you again. Taken out of context some of Roger's comments wouldn't be worth a second glance (many people on this board have made similar statements); but IN context is precisely where I take issue. I have no idea what Roger's true interest is regarding the nightlife, he's never said so explicitly. But I certainly have not seen many (if any) posts from him regarding non-bargirl nightlife. I will point out again that I mentioned in my original statement that if this was his interest I would welcome his comments. And again, am I the only one honest enough to admit that the main purpose of this board is to discuss "whores", as Roger so elegantly likes to call them? I just checked the "nightlife" section of the board and from the last 10 days I found only 1 thread (out of about 60) that was not directly related to "whores." Please go back and read my words a little more carefully. Frankly, I do debate well and I try to choose my words carefully. See if you can point out where I said anything like "Roger is not interested in any type of Thai nightlife." As I recall, the only thing I said was that IF someone (read ANY one) were not interested in 'nightlife' this is an odd board to frequent. And even then I went to great lengths to stress there was a difference between nightlife and "whore"-assisted nightlife. I again challenge you to point out any great leaps or wild accusations I've made. I'm more than willing to defend my words or retract them if I've stepped over the line. I don't have a bone to pick with you gummi, but I'd rather not have you malign my debating skills without just cause. Gummi, regarding your comment to fredCunty (This is an exercise for the reader, it would be too difficult to argue about here.): Define for yourself the meaning of "whore." Find that fine, fine line that makes one girl a whore and another a "good" girl. If you can identify with 100% certainty which is which, then you've made a great leap in sociology (please think of me when you accept your Nobel prize). It appears fredCunty and I have both tried to find that line and couldn't, so we are either all whores or none of us are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 29, 2002 Report Share Posted January 29, 2002 Really guys. I just stumbled upon a few old posts and only now realized that Roger is a well-known troll regarding his opinions on Thai "whores" and that pretty much all my debate points had already been raised by other board members. Those valid points being completely unaddressed by Roger, of course. You guys could have saved me a lot of time if you'd let me known this a week ago! Instead of this crap I could have been writing a trip report on the sisters I bf'ed from a bangkok gogo on my last trip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 29, 2002 Report Share Posted January 29, 2002 GummiGuts said quote: Fredcunty, you state, "ANd I wasnt making the point that ONLY women are whores, but we are all whores." Your world and my world are so different that there is no point in even starting a discussion. lol. A trolling statement if ever Ive seen one. If you dont want to start something then just dont include lines like these in your posts, you havent challenged my view in any way, youve havent even "stated your position". So if your gonna accuse me of close mindedness or whatever at least give me somepoint of view, you have offered nothing but insult. Although I must agree with you, we do live in different worlds, I live in a world of truth, where I question what I see and hear and do rather than rely on other peoples rhetoric. I form my own opinions mate, obviously you still havent grasped the entirety of what ive said, poor you. Anway gummi, if you havent got an opinion on the definition of a prostitute, which was the topic I was debating on, please dont respond to this post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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