Israel/hamas -- Weighted Criticism - Where The Hell Do You Find It?

[JaiRai]

People are either rabidly against Israel (majority of Western media, especially one of my favorite papers, 'the guardian'), or a smaller faction rabidly for Israel -- eg fox news and American neocons.

 

Found this to be one of the best articles I've read addressing the conflict.

 

http://www.samharris...riticize-israel

 

<snip>

 

I was going to do a podcast on a series of questions, but I got so many questions on the same topic that I think I’m just going to do a single response here, and we’ll do the #AskMeAnything next time. The question I’ve now received in many forms goes something like this: Why is it that you never criticize Israel? Why is it that you never criticize Judaism? Why is it that you always take the side of the Israelis over that of the Palestinians? Now, this is an incredibly boring and depressing question for a variety of reasons. The first, is that I have criticized both Israel and Judaism. What seems to have upset many people is that I’ve kept some sense of proportion. There are something like 15 million Jews on earth at this moment; there are a hundred times as many Muslims. I’ve debated rabbis who, when I have assumed that they believe in a God that can hear our prayers, they stop me mid-sentence and say, “Why would you think that I believe in a God who can hear prayers?†So there are rabbis—conservative rabbis—who believe in a God so elastic as to exclude every concrete claim about Him—and therefore, nearly every concrete demand upon human behavior. And there are millions of Jews, literally millions among the few million who exist, for whom Judaism is very important, and yet they are atheists. They don’t believe in God at all. This is actually a position you can hold in Judaism, but it’s a total non sequitur in Islam or Christianity.

 

So, when we’re talking about the consequences of irrational beliefs based on scripture, the Jews are the least of the least offenders. But I have said many critical things about Judaism. Let me remind you that parts of Hebrew Bible—books like Leviticus and Exodus and Deuteronomy—are the most repellent, the most sickeningly unethical documents to be found in any religion. They’re worse than the Koran. They’re worse than any part of the New Testament. But the truth is, most Jews recognize this and don’t take these texts seriously. It’s simply a fact that most Jews and most Israelis are not guided by scripture—and that’s a very good thing.

 

Of course, there are some who are. There are religious extremists among Jews. Now, I consider these people to be truly dangerous, and their religious beliefs are as divisive and as unwarranted as the beliefs of devout Muslims. But there are far fewer such people. For those of you who worry that I never say anything critical about Israel: My position on Israel is somewhat paradoxical. There are questions about which I’m genuinely undecided. And there’s something in my position, I think, to offend everyone. So, acknowledging how reckless it is to say anything on this topic, I’m nevertheless going to think out loud about it for a few minutes. I don’t think Israel should exist as a Jewish state. I think it is obscene, irrational and unjustifiable to have a state organized around a religion. So I don’t celebrate the idea that there’s a Jewish homeland in the Middle East. I certainly don’t support any Jewish claims to real estate based on the Bible. [Note: Read this paragraph again.]

 

Though I just said that I don’t think Israel should exist as a Jewish state, the justification for such a state is rather easy to find. We need look no further than the fact that the rest of the world has shown itself eager to murder the Jews at almost every opportunity. So, if there were going to be a state organized around protecting members of a single religion, it certainly should be a Jewish state. Now, friends of Israel might consider this a rather tepid defense, but it’s the strongest one I’ve got. I think the idea of a religious state is ultimately untenable. [Note: It is worth observing, however, that Israel isn’t “Jewish†in the sense that Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are “Muslim.†As my friend Jerry Coyne points out, Israel is actually less religious than the U.S., and it guarantees freedom of religion. Israel is not a theocracy, and one could easily argue that its Jewish identity is more cultural than religious. However, if we ask why the Jews wouldn’t move to British Columbia if offered a home there, we can see the role that religion still plays in their thinking.]

 

Needless to say, in defending its territory as a Jewish state, the Israeli government and Israelis themselves have had to do terrible things. They have, as they are now, fought wars against the Palestinians that have caused massive losses of innocent life. More civilians have been killed in Gaza in the last few weeks than militants. That’s not a surprise because Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on Earth. Occupying it, fighting wars in it, is guaranteed to get woman and children and other noncombatants killed. And there’s probably little question over the course of fighting multiple wars that the Israelis have done things that amount to war crimes. They have been brutalized by this process—that is, made brutal by it. But that is largely the due to the character of their enemies. [Note: I was not giving Israel a pass to commit war crimes. I was making a point about the realities of living under the continuous threat of terrorism and of fighting multiple wars in a confined space.]

 

Whatever terrible things the Israelis have done, it is also true to say that they have used more restraint in their fighting against the Palestinians than we—the Americans, or Western Europeans—have used in any of our wars. They have endured more worldwide public scrutiny than any other society has ever had to while defending itself against aggressors. The Israelis simply are held to a different standard. And the condemnation leveled at them by the rest of the world is completely out of proportion to what they have actually done. [Note: I was not saying that because they are more careful than we have been at our most careless, the Israelis are above criticism. War crimes are war crimes.]

 

It is clear that Israel is losing the PR war and has been for years now. One of the most galling things for outside observers about the current war in Gaza is the disproportionate loss of life on the Palestinian side. This doesn’t make a lot of moral sense. Israel built bomb shelters to protect its citizens. The Palestinians built tunnels through which they could carry out terror attacks and kidnap Israelis. Should Israel be blamed for successfully protecting its population in a defensive war? I don’t think so. [Note: I was not suggesting that the deaths of Palestinian noncombatants are anything less than tragic. But if retaliating against Hamas is bound to get innocents killed, and the Israelis manage to protect their own civilians in the meantime, the loss of innocent life on the Palestinian side is guaranteed to be disproportionate.]

 

But there is no way to look at the images coming out Gaza—especially of infants and toddlers riddled by shrapnel—and think that this is anything other than a monstrous evil. Insofar as the Israelis are the agents of this evil, it seems impossible to support them. And there is no question that the Palestinians have suffered terribly for decades under the occupation. This is where most critics of Israel appear to be stuck. They see these images, and they blame Israel for killing and maiming babies. They see the occupation, and they blame Israel for making Gaza a prison camp. I would argue that this is a kind of moral illusion, borne of a failure to look at the actual causes of this conflict, as well as of a failure to understand the intentions of the people on either side of it.[Note: I was not saying that the horror of slain children is a moral illusion; nor was I minimizing the suffering of the Palestinians under the occupation. I was claiming that Israel is not primarily to blame for all this suffering.]

 

The truth is that there is an obvious, undeniable, and hugely consequential moral difference between Israel and her enemies. The Israelis are surrounded by people who have explicitly genocidal intentions towards them. The charter of Hamas is explicitly genocidal. It looks forward to a time, based on Koranic prophesy, when the earth itself will cry out for Jewish blood, where the trees and the stones will say “O Muslim, there’s a Jew hiding behind me. Come and kill him.†This is a political document. We are talking about a government that was voted into power by a majority of the Palestinians. [Note: Yes, I know that not every Palestinian supports Hamas, but enough do to have brought them to power. Hamas is not a fringe group.]

 

The discourse in the Muslim world about Jews is utterly shocking. Not only is there Holocaust denial—there’s Holocaust denial that then asserts that we will do it for real if given the chance. The only thing more obnoxious than denying the Holocaust is to say that it should have happened; it didn’t happen, but if we get the chance, we will accomplish it. There are children’s shows that teach five-year-olds about the glories of martyrdom and about the necessity of killing Jews. And this gets to the heart of the moral difference between Israel and her enemies. And this is something I discussed in The End of Faith. To see this moral difference, you have to ask what each side would do if they had the power to do it.

[Flashermac]

"Whatever terrible things the Israelis have done, it is also true to say that they have used more restraint in their fighting against the Palestinians than we—the Americans, or Western Europeans—have used in any of our wars."

 

The Israelis have not deliberately fire bombed entire cities, starting the fires at the edges so they would burn inward and trap the civilians from fleeing. (The US and UK did it repeatedly to Germany and Japan.) The Israelis haven't nuked anybody. (The US did it to Japan.)

 

I often mention these when people go on about the "Great Generation".

 

War is horrible. I know ... I've seen it first hand. None of us are saints.

[baa99]

The IDF admits their mortar round hit the UN school, but deny any responsibility for casualties.

[khunsanuk]

Hi,

 

"The Israelis are surrounded by people who have explicitly genocidal intentions towards them."

 

And there are Israelis who believe that the only way to end this is to kill all Palestinians (you'd think they of all people would have learned from the atrocities of WW2, but apparently they haven't). Neither side is free of utter hatred for the other.

 

I also note that the author neatly ignores the encroachment of land perpetrated by the Israelis. Something which is likely a big part of the reason for the ongoing hostilities.

 

Sanuk!

[Flashermac]

What we know so far about the attack on a UN school in Gaza

 

 

IDF: "Last night, we told Red Cross to evacuate civilians from UNRWA's shelter in Beit Hanoun btw 10 am & 2 pm. UNRWA & Red Cross got the message."

 

IDF: "Today Hamas continued firing from Beit Hanoun. The IDF responded by targeting the source of the fire."

 

Looks like an Israeli tank round did it. Still just speculation...

 

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/24/5933819/gaza-un-school

[baa99]

What we know so far about the attack on a UN school in Gaza

 

 

IDF: "Last night, we told Red Cross to evacuate civilians from UNRWA's shelter in Beit Hanoun btw 10 am & 2 pm. UNRWA & Red Cross got the message."

 

IDF: "Today Hamas continued firing from Beit Hanoun. The IDF responded by targeting the source of the fire."

 

Looks like an Israeli tank round did it. Still just speculation...

 

http://www.vox.com/2.../gaza-un-school

 

No speculation.

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/28/world/meast/mideast-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

 

The Israeli military said it was not responsible for anyone killed last week when an "errant Israeli mortar" hit the courtyard of a U.N. school that was shelter to many Gaza residents.

U.N. and Palestinian officials said 16 people were killed and hundreds were wounded Thursday when the school in northern Gaza was struck.

Israel Defense Forces spokesman Lt. Col. Peter Lerner said militants had fired anti-tank missiles from the immediate area of the school, and the IDF fired several mortar shells back in that direction.

"A single errant Israeli mortar landed in the courtyard in the school," Lerner said. "The footage we have shows the courtyard was empty."

 

"We reject the claim that people were killed by the IDF mortar on the school premises," he added. But Lerner said there could have been people who were wounded by shrapnel.

 

So the IDF does not believe the UN officials that witnessed the casualties at the school.

[Flashermac]

16 dead and hundreds wounded by one "errant mortar round" is unbelievable. I've been on the receiving end of mortar rounds. Even if one landed in an area jam packed with people, it wouldn't do that much damage. Somebody is not telling the truth.

[bust]

All I know is both groups lay claim to the area as far back as biblical times. The conflict in the area has been going on since the 1800's when the Ottomans were in control. The Israeli Palestinian conflict started when Israel was created in 1947. The current issue between Israel and Hamas rulers in Gaza started when Hamas took control of Gaza in 2007, An incredible amount of history and lessons to be learned from it all. And it ain't going to be resolved anytime soon.

[My Penis is hungry]

Rubbish - The conflict started long before that, when zionists moved to Israel in the late 1800's and early 1900's, terrorists like Ben-gurin "

“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.â€

 

And many other modern day "hero's' of Israel blew up places killing people, bombing etc long before 1947. Many people forget that huge numbers of Catholic Palestinians have been just as affected, but hey let's not let the truth get in the way of a propaganda war on Muslims now,

 

The saddest part to me is the displacement the zionists caused of jewish communities across the Middle East, Prior to 1947 many jewish communitiees existed in many of the Middle East countries, only to be expelled from their century old homes as the Palestinians have been evicted from their century old homes.

 

It's never about the religion, it's about the land grabbing, Zionists embrace comfortable relationships with Druze and other muslim's as it suits them. Catholic Palestinians have been part of the stone throwing etc,

 

But hey, let's not have truth get in the way of propaganda now.

[Flashermac]

So are the Arabs states going to allow the 800,000 plus Jewish refugees to return to their homes? Will they return their seized property to them. The Middle East is f*cked.

 

http://en.wikipedia....uslim_countries