kamui Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 Roppongi said: ThaiHome said:A recent experience in China shows how some Japanese feel about their exploits in the first half of the twentieth century. A large Japanese construction company scheduled a big contract (600+ million USD) signing ceremony for Sept 18. Not realizing the significance of that date, we went along with it until our Chinese partner informed us they would not be coming. Turns out that is the date Japan invaded Manchuria in 1931. It is a day of similar significance to the Chinese as Dec 7th is to Americans. Did the Japanese do it on purpose? I don't know, but the Chinese sure thought so. TH ThaiHome you're reading way too much into this. Can't recall too many Japanese refusing to conduct business with Americans on August 6 (the day Hiroshima was nuked). If every nation had that attitude, global trade would ground to a halt. Roppongi, I am not sure if you are right, just read this article from Nov. 2003. Until now Japanese officials only gave very weak apologies and the goverment never compensated individiual victims of their atrocities. Once the government set up through a private foundation a "non official" fund for comfort women, but the Korean women refused the money because it was not official money from the Japanese state and therefore would not include/mean an apology. To make things more worse: a former military commander was appointed as the head of the fund who actually was involved in the comfort women system during wartime. This fact was only published in the regional Japanese press in Kansai and never made the headlines. As I said, concerning the wartime the Japanese media are quite reluctant to report about it. It is very interesting to compare how Germany and Japan dealt with it's warcrimes after 1945. Germany apologized very open and deeply on several occasions and paid billions of Dollars to states AND individuals from Poland to Israel. The Japanese apologies until now were very weak and Japan never paid compensation to individiuals. That's the reason why common people in Asia still demand compensation AND a real apology. By the way Asian governments use the resentments as a political weapon against Japan if convenient. Anti-Japan protests worry China By Tim Luard BBC News An anti-Japanese petition signed by a million Chinese has come as an embarrassment to the governments of both countries Chinese activists handed in the protest letter at the Japanese embassy in Beijing on Thursday, to mark the 72nd anniversary of the start of Japan's occupation of northeast China. Launched by seven Chinese Web sites and signed by 1.12 million people within a month, the petition demanded that Japan apologise for and compensate Chinese victims poisoned by abandoned chemical weapons from World War II. But there was no mention of it in the official Chinese media and the Japanese Foreign Ministry in Tokyo denied all knowledge of it. Japan's wartime record is a regular source of tension between the two countries. In the most recent case, a man died and more than 40 people were injured last month when five metal barrels containing mustard gas were unearthed in the Chinese city of Qiqihar. Japan has apologised for the incident, but refused calls for compensation on the grounds that the issue was settled when the two countries established diplomatic ties in 1972. "Ordinary people in China have had anti-Japanese feelings for a long time, so news of this online petition does not surprise me", Wu Jiaxiang, a former aide to the Communist Party leadership, told BBC News Online. "But the government is trying to play it down. Japan is a big overseas market for China and an important provider of investment and technology," he said. China is usually keen to commemorate sensitive events such as the "Mukden Incident" in the hope of gaining further diplomatic leverage. --- 1931 MUKDEN INCIDENT Japanese army officers staged an attack on its railway in north east China Used incident to justify seizure of nearby town of Mukden (Shenyang) Japan went on to occupy all of north east China Incident now seen as a cause of WWII in Pacific --- Thursday's anniversary, however, was marked with little fanfare and the authorities rejected an application by 50 activists to stage a protest march in Beijing. China's communist party has always been wary of spontaneous protest - whether online or on the street. But the younger generation of leaders who have taken power in Beijing in the past year also have their own reasons for trying to dampen down enthusiasm for the anti-Japanese petition. History no barrier The new government is showing signs of wanting to mend fences with Japan and tone down China's traditionally harsh public rhetoric. Foreign Minister Li Zhaoxing said on a visit to Japan last month that history should not be a "burden" but rather a "source of wisdom and strength" . This appears to suggest he thinks the war should no longer be a barrier to better ties. But not everyone in the new leadership agrees, according to Phil Deans, Director of the Contemporary China Institute at SOAS London University. "The more progressive reformers see Japan as a strategic economic partner and want to improve relations as part of the overall Chinese policy of reform and opening up. Phil Deans, SOAS London University "But more conservative groups in the leadership often use the historical issue of Japan as a means of slowing down or provoking opposition to the economic changes," Dr Deans told BBC News Online. "You are not allowed to stand up and say 'reform is terrible' but if you say 'Japan is terrible' no one can argue with you ... because to be positive about Japan is to be considered un-Chinese." Dr Deans believes an anti-Japanese sentiment is "fundamental to contemporary Chinese nationalism" Visiting shrines Jia Qingguo, professor of international relations at Beijing University, agrees that the Chinese government has to tread a fine line in its dealings with Japan. But in his view it is Japanese leaders who are slowing progress in the relationship by continuing to provoke China on sensitive issues such as visiting war shrines. "China has made sincere efforts in recent months to improve relations but these have not been reciprocated by Japan", said professor Jia. He said the Chinese government "understands" the desire of its individual citizens for compensation on the weapons issue, but does not want to "interfere" But another analyst in Beijing, Liu Junning, thinks the difference between official and unofficial attitudes suggests ordinary people want to have a bigger voice in China's foreign policy. "It's an important development since the authorities have always insisted they have the exclusive right to deal with foreign affairs. The people are very much discouraged from expressing their opinions on such matters. "So it seems to me, the petition is something of significance between the Chinese government and its people rather than between China and Japan," he said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirit_of_town_hall Posted November 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 As you perceive I always think the west is better, I think you always perceive the west as this big baddy always preying an exploiting the poor oppressed third word... I think you are possibly just as blinkered as you perceive me to be. FYI the UK suffered a pototoe famine as well, only we bought from the Irish lords who were happy to see their spuds to us... The Irish are very cute at painting this big nasty picture of the British which is total sentimetal bollocks... Fly can you name one islamic country that is a functioning democracy? If you have to hark back to incidents occuring 100's of years ago such as spanish and portugese expansion, the potatoe famine,opium wars etc, to expalin modern day failings of those people then you are grasping at well grasped liberal guilt straws STH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
check_bin_krap Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 Suddenly, a discussion which has NOTHING to do with Islam is driven into that again.. And whats the west STH? tell me? I am curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khunsanuk Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 Hi, "Suddenly, a discussion which has NOTHING to do with Islam is driven into that again.. " No, I do not think I will allow that. In other words, post on Islam irrelevant to the ongoing discussion willl be deleted. Sanuk! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 >>>If you have to hark back to incidents occuring 100's of years ago such as spanish and portugese expansion, the potatoe famine,opium wars etc, to expalin modern day failings of those people then you are grasping at well grasped liberal guilt straws<<< history are not singular events there to explain your personal personal agendas, history is a continuum. that means that action follows reaction. and it rather clear, looking at history, that western society has been the single most aggressive culture humanity has seen. try to see things in context. look at how japan in the meji restauration was inspired into the changes that led to the extreme nationalism which has culminated in the horrors of WW2: fear of colonialism and an aggressive reaction to counter that colonialism of western powers. the west has conquered asia with its supreme military powers (not its supreme morality) and of course that instilled fear into the free asian countries. look at the development of germany from a group of warring princely states into WW1 and its logical conclusion of WW2: a fear of lagging behind the longer established nations in the colonial race. nationalism brought to the extreme all around. and how can you be so blind not to see that many problems of the poorer parts of the world are logical results of colonialism (just look at an african map and its artificial borders, the way how borders were drawn completely disregarding cultural lines and until today resulting civil wars). how many of those problems were results of post WW2 interference such as constant political meddlings of the west? how many brutal dictatorships has the west installed and supported in the poorer parts of the world? regarding your perceived moral superiority of the west how does it fit into the picture that dictators such as suharto, pinochet, papa doc/baby doc, saddham, ect. were installations of the west? no, i am not "blinkered", i am under no illusions of the shortcomings of the developing world (i do have to live every day in a country with increasing home made shortcomings), but i do not look at the world in the by you suggested rather simplistic ideas of who is morally superior, using a reactionist view on history, singling out events that seem to fit into my personal agenda. i prefer to leave the morals in the church, and try to view things in its social, historical and cultural contexts. basically, coming back to the topic of japan, it is impossible to judge japan only by the culmination of a long development that led to the events of nankin and manchuko, but one has to look more into the reasons for the meji restoration in context to the wider develoments in the whole of asia during those days. as long as you paralise your intellect by trying to find out who is morally superior you will *never* understand jackshit about the world, and only come to false conclusions bordering on racism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BelgianBoy Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 Fly can you name one islamic country that is a functioning democracy? Turkey. But I can name western countries that are NOT functioning as a democracy..... Whats your stupid point ? BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 kamui said:Roppongi, I am not sure if you are right, just read this article from Nov. 2003. Until now Japanese officials only gave very weak apologies and the goverment never compensated individiual victims of their atrocities. Once the government set up through a private foundation a "non official" fund for comfort women, but the Korean women refused the money because it was not official money from the Japanese state and therefore would not include/mean an apology. To make things more worse: a former military commander was appointed as the head of the fund who actually was involved in the comfort women system during wartime. This fact was only published in the regional Japanese press in Kansai and never made the headlines. As I said, concerning the wartime the Japanese media are quite reluctant to report about it. It is very interesting to compare how Germany and Japan dealt with it's warcrimes after 1945. Germany apologized very open and deeply on several occasions and paid billions of Dollars to states AND individuals from Poland to Israel. The Japanese apologies until now were very weak and Japan never paid compensation to individiuals. That's the reason why common people in Asia still demand compensation AND a real apology. By the way Asian governments use the resentments as a political weapon against Japan if convenient. Kamui, ain't it funny how all these calls for individual compensation have suddenly emerged after Japan became an economic Super Power? The Japanese government insists that ALL compensation was settled at government level and it was the responsibility of these states to pay out to their own citizens, as supported by one of the articles you quoted. Getting back to my point, your average Kenji Tanaka is a forward looking individual and has put the past behind him and has no ill feeling toward China. As for Germany having cleansed its soul and emptied its wallet, that may be the message the spin doctors in the Fatherland portray through the local media, but many victims abroad will still probably disagree. As I said before, every nation has skeletons in the closet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BelgianBoy Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 As for Germany having cleansed its soul and emptied its wallet, that may be the message the spin doctors in the Fatherland portray through the local media, but many victims abroad will still probably disagree. Roppi-san, Not sure about your knowledge on Germany, but most camp/holocaust/repression survivors are still receiving monthly payments. Only degrading thing they have to do is show their face once a year at the local German embassy to show they are still alive. BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 problem in germany was that many roma and sinti survivors in eastern europe got the short end of the stick, due to lack of a powerful lobby they never, or far too late, received their compensation. but that was openly debated very critically in the german press. it's a while ago, but i remember that it was a huge scandal when that issue came out in the open. basically, i believe that the compensation issue is a direct responsibility of germany and japan, that cannot/should not be shifted to corrupt regimes that shaft the survivors again. i think compensation should be paid until the last survivor of the camps has died (or in case of japan - the last survivor of the japanese atrocities in nanking and manchukuo). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaiHome Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 Roppongi said: ThaiHome you're reading way too much into this. It wasn't me reading anything into it, it was the Chinese convinced the Japanese were doing a subtle insult to them. I don't know if it was intentional, I do know we rescheduled the signing for 2 weeks later and Japanese never asked us why. I do think there are number of Japanese that are unrepentant about the behavior of Japan in the events leading up to and WWII itself. In my limited experience these people tend to be the most senior level executives of major corporations and not the actual working level people. TH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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