ALHOLK Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 Hi! Do you think there might be a correlation between the very high gun ownership levels in the US and the very high murder rates? That might not be the entire picture. Sweden as well as Norway and Finland have a rather larg amount of gun owners compared to many other countries. The difference being that permits are only issued to hunters and people who shoot for sport. There are also in Sweden at least very strickt law on how the gun may be kept. Gun permits for personal protection are extremely rare. This does not mean that we have been spared from tragic incidens involving leagal fire arms but the are not as common as "over there". As a side note, I know nothing about Canadas gun laws but the size of the country and it's geography suggests that hunting would be quite common. I don't recall ever hearing of any major shooting incidents from there. regards ALHOLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lazyphil Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 <<there have been previous clashes between immigrants from Southeast Asia and white hunters in the region>> We was in Minnesota in June staying in a friends cabin, my SEAsian wife behaved herself impeccably, didn't shoot anyone , but she did catch, kill and fry some of their bass BB <<In my younger years one went hunting with a shotgun without a telescopic sight>> My US friends father hunts with a bow, gets a couple of deer a season and freezes for consuption during the year, he tells me bow hunting is quite popular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo_bill Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 Phil, any deer who sees Belgianboy falls down dead from a stroke anyway. BuBi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lazyphil Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 LMAO!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BelgianBoy Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 buffalo_bill said:Phil, any deer who sees Belgianboy falls down dead from a stroke anyway. BuBi Oh deer !!! BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jxxxl Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 "In my younger years one went hunting with a shotgun without a telescopic sight. BB, a scope is never used with a "shotgun". What are you talking about. And, using a scope for shoting animals at long distiances precedes both of us. It's not considered unsporting to use a scope at 100-200 yards. How much hunting have you done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushpilot Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 ALHOLK said:Hi! Do you think there might be a correlation between the very high gun ownership levels in the US and the very high murder rates? That might not be the entire picture. Sweden as well as Norway and Finland have a rather larg amount of gun owners compared to many other countries. The difference being that permits are only issued to hunters and people who shoot for sport. There are also in Sweden at least very strickt law on how the gun may be kept. Gun permits for personal protection are extremely rare. This does not mean that we have been spared from tragic incidens involving leagal fire arms but the are not as common as "over there". As a side note, I know nothing about Canadas gun laws but the size of the country and it's geography suggests that hunting would be quite common. I don't recall ever hearing of any major shooting incidents from there. regards ALHOLK As in the US horrible incidents like this are very rare. Again focus should remain on the individual who pulled the trigger and why he did it. While avoiding making the obvious and ill- informed media knee jerk reactions. I'm sure everyone would like to think for themselves on issues like this rather than be lead around by the nose by the media. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BelgianBoy Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 jxxxl said:"In my younger years one went hunting with a shotgun without a telescopic sight. BB, a scope is never used with a "shotgun". What are you talking about. And, using a scope for shoting animals at long distiances precedes both of us. It's not considered unsporting to use a scope at 100-200 yards. How much hunting have you done? Of course, no telescopic sight on a shotgun ! thats what I wrote, no ?????? And using scopes is sporting for longer ranges ???? hahahahahaha you have no idea of sportmanship. And how much shooting I have done, is not the issue here. BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 Just a thought,but didn't the brady bill outlaw 20 round clips? and, I would speculate the hunters did not ask him to leave politely ( not that that gives him any reason to do what he did) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USVirgin Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 and, I would speculate the hunters did not ask him to leave politely ( not that that gives him any reason to do what he did) That's what he's claiming. There is a lot of racial tension in the region between the Hmong and the locals. Now if one of the guys actually took a shot at him, I can begin to understand... This link is supposed to be subscription, so I'll paste the whole story here. Sawyer County Probable Cause Statement in case of Chai Soua Vang, released Nov. 23, 2004 Editors note: The below information contains graphic information and content some people may consider offensive. Probable Cause Statement Chai Soua Vang 09-24-1968 810 4th Street St. Paul, MN 55106 On November 21, 2004 at 12:30 p.m. Sawyer County Sheriff's investigator Gary Gillis was contacted by chief deputy Tim Zeigle who advised that there has been a shooting with multiple victims in southern Sawyer County. Chief Deputy Tim Zeigle requested that investigator Gary Gillis respond to the scene. November 21, 2004 was the second day of the 2004 Wisconsin rifle deer season. Investigator Gary Gillis was advised that the incident occurred in the woods behind a cabin at 394N Deer Lake Road in the town of Meteor in Sawyer County, Wisconsin. Investigator Gary Gillis learned that there had been some sort of dispute that developed between a hunting party at 394N Deer Lake Road and at the time an unknown male subject of Asian descent. Reports indicated that the Asian male wandered onto property owned by Terry Willers and Robert Crotteau. The Asian male was located sitting in a tree stand on the private property. The asian male was confronted by Terry Willers and told by Willers to leave the property. Willers used a walkie talkie to advise the rest of the hunting party that were located at the cabin that Willers told the subject to leave and Willers was going to wait and make sure the subject left. Lauren Hesebeck was able to provide the following information. At this point Robert Crotteau, Joe Crotteau, Lauren Hesebeck, Dennis Drew and Mark Roidt left the cabin and went to Willers location. During another verbal exchange with the Asian male one of the members of the property owner's party wrote the back tag number of the Asian male subject in the dirt on a "mule" which is a 2 side-by-side seat ATV. The back tag number that was written down was 0685505. The Asian male was also advised that law enforcement was going to be called. Records check of the back tag indicated that the tag was registered to Chai Vang 09-24-1968, 810 4th ST E, St Paul MN 55106. 5'04" 145 lbs black hair and brown eyes. Vang was later arrested and was in possession of this back tag. The Asian male from this point will be referred to as Vang. Vang started to walk a way and got approximately 40 yards a way. Then Vang appeared to remove the scope from his rifle and turned around and started shooting. Vang shot several times and hit Willers. Prior to being shot Willers returned fire but did not hit Vang. Vang shot several more shots and struck Dennis Drew and Mark Roidt. Lauren Hesebeck attempted to hide behind the "mule" but Vang moved around the "mule" and shot Lauren Hesebeck in the shoulder. Robert and Joe Crotteau ran away from the scene. Vang then pursued Robert and Joe. Both Robert and Joe were located away from the initial scene and had been shot to death. While Vang was pursuing Robert and Joe, Lauren Hesebeck was able to call on the walkie talkie to the cabin and advised that he had been shot and needed help. Help arrived and removed Terry Willers from the scene. A short time later Lauren heard another ATV approaching and then heard more gun shots. Lauren advised that Vang then appeared again where the shooting originally started. Lauren Hesebeck heard Vang say something like "one of you fuckers are still alive". Lauren Hesebeck indicated that he returned fire at that time but is unsure how many times. Robert Crotteau, Joey Crotteau, Mark Roidt, Jessica Willers and Allan Laski were all deceased at the scene from what appeared to be gun shot wounds. Terry Willers was shot in the neck and was taken to the hospital. Dennis Drew was shot in the abdomen and was transported to the hospital. Lauren Hesebeck was shot in the shoulder and was transported to the hospital. On November 22, 2004 investigator Gary Gillis was advised that Dennis Drew had also died from the wound he received. Vang was later apprehended by Wisconsin DNR Warden Jeremy Peery. Vang was still in possession of his hunting gear, including back tag and also his rifle. The rifle was a Saiga SKS 7.62x39 caliber, serial number HO-3104079. Vang did not have any ammunition with him when taken into custody. Vang made no comments to Warden Peery. On November 22, 2004 at approximately 10:15 a.m. investigator Gary Gillis and FBI agent Ken Mammoser interviewed Chai Vang at the Sawyer County Jail. Vang was read his Miranda rlghts which Vang indicated that he understood and also signed the form indicating that he understood them. Investigator Gary Gillis also asked Vang if Vang could read and write the English language. Vang stated that he could. Investigator Gary Gillis asked Vang to read out loud the waiver of Miranda rights. Vang read the waiver out loud to investigator Gary Gillis and S/A Mammoser. Vang stated that he understood the waiver but at this time wished to talk to a lawyer first before making a statement. At this point the interview ended. At approximately 10:30 a.m. Investigator Gary Gillis was contacted by the on duty jailer. Investigator Gary Gillis was advised that while jailer Frank Metzinger was going to move Vang back to Vang's cell, Vang advised Metzinger that Vang was willing to talk to investigators. Investigator Gary Gillis advised Lt. Kurt Barthel of this and advised that the request by Vang needed to be in writing. Lt. Barthel then met with Vang and gave Vang a Sawyer County Jail inmate request form. Vang wrote out and signed the form. Vang wrote "I would like to talk to the investigator now. I don't want a lawyer at this time." Investigator Gary Gillis and S/A Mammoser again met with Vang in the interview room at the Sawyer County Jail. Investigator Gary Gillis showed Vang the inmate request form and asked Vang if Vang had filled it out and signed it. Vang indicated that he did. Investigator Gary Gillis advised Vang that Investigator Gary Gillis needed to read Vang his Miranda rights again. Vang stated that he understood. Investigator Gary Gillis read the Miranda rights and Vang stated that he understood his rights. Investigator Gary Gillis then advised Vang to read the waiver of rights which Vang did and signed the waiver of rights at 10:35 a.m. indicating that Vang wanted to talk with investigator Gary Gillis and S/A Mammoser. Vang stated that Vang had been hunting on public land and got lost. Vang stated that Vang located a tree stand next to a swamp. Nobody was in the stand so Vang climbed into it. Vang stated that after approximately 15 minutes another hunter approached Vang. the hunter asked Vang "Why are you in the stand, you're on private property," Vang stated that Vang told the subject that Vang did not know that the land was private and that Vang did not see any "no trespassing" signs. Vang stated that Vang climbed down and started to walk away. Vang stated that while walking away Vang heard the other male subject call on a walkie talkie. Vang did not hear what was said. Vang stated that a few moments later 2 ATV's approached his location with 5 or 6 guys on them. Vana stated that Vang was confronted by this group also. Vang stated that one of the subjects that Vang believed to be the owner of the property stated "why were you in my son's stand"? Vang stated that Vang told the man that Vang did not know it was private land. And that Vang did not see any signs indicating that land was private. Vang stated that this man stated "you just trespassed through 400 acres of private land." Vang stated that the others in the group surrounded Vang. Vang stated that the man that Vang thought to be the owner then started calling Vang names like "gook, chink, fucking asian." Vang stated that at this point the only one that Vang saw with a gun was the first subject that kicked Vang out of the stand. Vang stated that Vang was told to get off the fucking property and never come back. Vang stated that at one point they wrote down his license number and stated that they were going to call the law enforcement. Vang stated that some of the others in the group started calling Vang names (gook, chink) and were also swearing at Vang, Vang stated that Vang started walking a way and got approximately 20 yards a way and turned around and observed the man that had the rifle walking towards the rest of the group, Vang also observed the man take the rifle off his shoulder and took the rifle into his hands. Vang stated that Vang stated that Vang was approximately 100 feet away and looked back again, Vang stated that Vang observed the subject with the rifle point the rifle at Vang. Vang stated that Vang immediately dropped to a crouch position and the subject shot at Vang and the bullet hit the ground 30 to 40 feet behind Vang. Vang stated that Vang removed the scope from his rifle. Vang stated that Vang shot 2 times at the man with the rifle and the man dropped to the ground. Vang saw all the others run towards the ATV's and Vang continued to shoot. Vang stated that 2 or 3 more men fell to the ground. Vang stated that a couple of the men started to run, Vang stated that Vang chased after one of the men that ran towards the cabin. Vang stated that the man was yelling "help me, help me". Vang stated that Vang shot at the man several time while chasing him. Vang stated that Vang stated that he got to about 15 to 20 feet of the man who was still running a way an)) Vang shot him in the back. Vang 5t a ted that the man dropped to the ground. Vang stated that the man did not have a gun. Vang stated that Vang walked up to the man and heard the man groan and then Vang walked a way. (This is believed to be the body of Joey Crotteau.) Vang stated that at this point Vang heard one of the other men call on the walkie talkie and state "we've been shot and need help." Vang stated that Vang observed 3 other subjects coming on an ATV. Vang stated that Vang then turned his reversible coat from orange to camo. Vang stated that he also reloaded his magazine with 5 or 6 bullets. Vang stated that Vang did not shoot at these men because they had guns with them. Vang stated that the men were in by the other injured men for less then a minute and then left. Vang did not know if the men took any of the wounded out with them. Vang stated that Vang then observed another ATV coming with 2 more people on it. Vang stated that the driver of this ATV had a gun on his shoulder. Vang stated that Vang began to run and Vang stated that they saw Vang running and were going too fast to stop and drove past Vang. Vang stated that they stopped approximately 10 to 15 feet past Vang at a 45 degree angle. Vang stated that the man removed the gun from his shoulder with one hand while the other hand was on the handle bars of the ATV. Vang stated that Vang shot 3 or 4 times and both people fell off the ATV and onto the ground. (these are the bodies of Allan Laski and Jessica Willers.) Vang stated that Vang then started to run back towards where the original shooting started. Vang stated that Vang looked up the trail and saw that one of the men were standing. Vang stated that Vang yelled "you're not dead yet?" Vang stated that Vang shot one more time in the direction of this man but doesn't know if he hit the man or not. Vang stated that he continued to run away and did not return. Vang stated that at one point while running Vang decided that he did not want to shoot anybody else, so Vang threw his remaining ammunition into a swamp. Yang stated that approximately an hour after throwing the ammunition away Vang heard the airplane overhead. Vang stated that Vang was thinking that they were looking for Vang so Vang was thinking about turning himself in. Vang stated that Vang came upon a hunter with an ATV and asked the hunter for a ride to the road. Vang stated that the hunter drove Vang to the hunter's cabin. Vang stated that the wardens were at the cabin waiting for him. At the scene there was only 1 rifle located. That rifle was located near the body of Mark Roidt. All of the victims were dressed in blaze orange clothing. Preliminary autopsy results conducted by the forensic pathology team under the direction of Dr. McGee of the Ramsey County, Minnesota Medical Examiner's office are as follows: Robert Crotteau -gun shot Joey Crotteau -gun shot Al Laski -gun shot Jessica Willers -gun shot Mark Roidt -gun shot Dennis Drew -autopsy pending Investigator Gary Gillis November 23, 2004 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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