Dutch consider burqa ban

[Flashermac]

End of the Dalek look?

[Nervous_Dog]

You talking about my wife?

 

DOG

[Solomick]

Good luck Holland and well done.

[khunsanuk]

Hi,

 

Just read the article and must admit that I can see both sides of this. Though call.

 

While I think people should have the right to dress themselves as they wish, it does provide a security issue. It also pisses me off that the rights Muslims get in the West are not given to non-Muslims in many (all?) Muslim countries.

 

They want, and have, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, they even get time of for their religious holidays. On top of that people in the West are to be sensitive of their religion and religious practices.

 

Wouldn't it be great if it all were reciprocated?

 

Sanuk!

[gobbledonk]

Wouldn't it be great if it all were reciprocated?

 

Absolutely, KS.

 

One of the things which really rankles with me is that the West has a very vocal minority from Islam who want to enjoy all the benefits of life in a *stable democracy* whilst railing against those aspects of that same democracy that dont fit into their cyclopean world view. It seems that freedom of religion is just fine, but that doesnt extend to Christian evangelists being able to preach to Muslims (I dont have much patience for either group, but surely its a contradiction to push your religious views with no tolerance for anyone else's ?)

 

My ire is reserved for the pathetic pollies who have allowed this to happen in the name of 'tolerance'. How tolerant are we of extremists from other parts of the world ? Ian Paisley cant come to Oz and preach his divisive and hateful brand of 'religion' : why the hell do we let radical Islamic clerics into our country ?

 

The longer the West tiptoes around this issue, the more volatile it will become. Someone once said that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance - I dont think that is an obsolete notion.

[..]

gobbledonk said:

My ire is reserved for the pathetic pollies who have allowed this to happen in the name of 'tolerance'. How tolerant are we of extremists from other parts of the world ? Ian Paisley cant come to Oz and preach his divisive and hateful brand of 'religion' : why the hell do we let radical Islamic clerics into our country ?

I am pretty much anti-religion. But, unless they are inciting violence (one's freedom of speech ends there), then you must let them speak or you are a hypocrite. A fine example is the ultimate freakazoid wacko Fred Phelps in the US. I hate what he says, he makes me want to vomit for picketing military funerals amongst other things, but as Voltaire has been accused of saying, "I may not agree with what you say, but I'll fight to the death for your right to say it." That's the hard part of this democracy business, you gotta take the good with the bad, otherwise you are just another dictator. And what happens in other countries (i.e., they should reciprocate) is meaningless as we need to stick to our principles, dispite what they do. We *are* better than they are and that proves it. Diplomatic pressure and the fact that they are losing population will eventually lead to a change. And of course, as in Phelps case, anti-prosters make their voice heard perhaps causing a change as well (but make no laws suppressing free speech as the "market" will take care of itself).

 

Call me a Pathetic Polly for the above beliefs if you want. That's your right. And I am not saying that some PC folks do not go over the top. They certainly do and they should be ashamed, giving up their rights to appease someone else. That is NOT democracy either.

 

So as you may guess from the above, I am disappointed in the Dutchies for even considering this. Disappointed in them because I see Holland as the ultimate example of democracy in the world, and with this action, it is slipping away.

 

Regards,

SD

[Neo]

While I think people should have the right to dress themselves as they wish, it does provide a security issue.

The way I read this article, it is NOT a security issue "voted to forbid women from wearing the burqa or any Muslim face coverings in public". Is a face covering a security issue? Then why only if it is a Muslim face covering? Later the article appears to clarify their real reasoning:

 

"The burqa is hostile to women, and medieval. For a woman to walk around on the streets completely covered is an insult to everyone who believes in equal rights."

 

This is the most moronic law since the plastic butter knives.

 

[Old Hippie]

Severel States in the USA have laws against covering your face in public. The reason in Many is the prevent the Kan and other groups from covering their faces whilst commiting their crap...it also prevents (or is supposed to prevent) someone from walking into a shop, or any other place, with a mask on and committing a crime...So there is a point to it.

 

I think it was Florida demanded a woman remove her Muslim face mask and be photographed for her driver's license, she refused, sued, and I believed lost...what about Passports etc...? How can someone requiring I.D. (police, immigration check cashing places, banks etc...) be certain of who they are dealing with unless they can see the face...?

 

People's rights in these cases get rediculis after awhile, especially since many also want to claim persecution in their own countries...if they want to live in a different country, then they need to abide by the rules of that country...

 

My Ex was a nurse in Saudi Arabia, she had to wear a scarf and face covering when she went into the market/public areas...failure to do so ment arrest, that is/was Saudi law. People working or living there were expected to abide by that law. Why shouldn't the west expect the same from Saudis choosing to live here...?

[zzzz]

I like John Lennon's message (in his song "Imagine"): the world would be a better place without countries or religion.

[Topcatta]

Hi SD,

 

Let me enlighten you about Holland. This country has a good name of (sexual) liberation and democracy. However Dutchies cant live up to that since a right wing goverment is screwing up a lot of things (even wanting to take the Red light district in Amsterdam away...). This so called democracy is supposed to give voice to every one and the problem is IT DOES but nobody is there on the other side to hear it. The democratic processes are an absolute farce in this country. If you dont look like them, you wont be heard. Does not matter if that is difference in skin color, clothes, class.

 

It does scare me if one of my Islamic friends tells me he is bullied at work by an Islamic extremist about shortening his name for the sake of convenience at work since many bare the same name, being attacked about not being a real believer. My friend is living together with a Dutch white girlfriend is very intercultural and is very much a believer in Islam but not the way demanded by the extremist. Do you also think this extremist should have the freedom of speech?

 

Problem is Holland took so many Islamic ppl to work in this country, promising them they could save money for their families and that the job would only be short-term. When the workers found out all their wages went to food and lodgings and their temp stay turned into long term they were still treated as outsiders. Some had not managed to learn Dutch so were confined to their own. The last years Integration has been a big subject in Holland but nobody knows what that is exactly. Is integretion teaching Dutch language and giving Islamic women bike lessons bike or does it entail more? The third generation Islamics in their puberty are a big problem here. (I let my waterbottle sit at my bike and when I came back from roller skating some Maroccan kids had pissed in the bottle. Luckily I noticed. I gave them shit but they certainly did not expect to get shit. Since very few ppl speak up in this country and when they do it is dangerous (Theo van Gogh). Real integration is learning from each others culture; Not saying you have to do what we do, cause you are living on a piece of land we call ours. Real integration is sharing hospitality and becoming friends. Something the Dutch can learn a lot from their Islamic brothers and ppl from other warm cultures. And it is very much time for the Dutch to start learning about hospitality and start breaking down their superiority complex regarding other cultures even though they say they are not racist.

 

As long as the different parties dont get to know each other they will never get anywhere. The Dutch superiority complex and their attitude of arrogance pretending to know everything better eventhough the other might be the expert, certainly does NOT help us out here.

 

So the answering of the question on the burqa's is Holland's own karma. If you dont really care for your guests how could you expect them to take care of you? Let them sit there and figure it out in their ivory towers (meaning as well as policy makers as ordinary ppl with superiority complex) so ppl can get even more frightened of terrorism and of every Islamic person. All parties can get even more aggrevated and entranged. If it was a real democracy here things wouldnt have come so far.

 

JUst a note for the offended Dutchies out there: the fact that we got our asses out of Holland to see, feel, experience other cultures puts us with one leg in Holland and with the other in a different culture. This way you can see more of both cultures. And hopefully that have left you to shed your superiority complex which actually sprouts out of inferiority feelings.