pai mei Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 Hi, please do re-read the last 50 posts here, most are ou to vilify the messenger, not his message, weak tactics to play the man and not his actions, illegal or not..... and yes, what he did was illegal, hence his hiding in London as he does nt want to be extrapolated to the US, as he could face the death penalty for having brought out the truth. comparing wikileaks to Watergate is horses for courses So, just out of curiosity Belgian dude, what are weak tactics? Criticizing Assange or questioning his credibility? Hmmmm. I think you'll find a consensus in agreement if you're talking about things like Abu Ghraib, or disinformation distributed by powerful government entities. Most folks here won't support that. Where you won't find consensus though is this portrait of Assange as some sort of supernatural moral being above questioning. Please. And he's not facing the death penalty anywhere other than fantasy. If the US government was as evil and all powerful as he makes it out to be, don't you think he would've been silenced a long time ago? The only request is to look at Assange with a critical eye. Can you do that? Or is he somehow elevated above reproach? That's what alarms me. This Jesus Christ complex in him and his adorers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallenda Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 Hi, please do re-read the last 50 posts here, most are ou to vilify the messenger, not his message, weak tactics to play the man and not his actions, illegal or not..... and yes, what he did was illegal, hence his hiding in London as he does nt want to be extrapolated to the US, as he could face the death penalty for having brought out the truth. comparing wikileaks to Watergate is horses for courses Watergate = breaking in and stealing confidential data on paper Wikileaks = breaking in and stealing confidential data digitally I'm waiting to see if anyone else buys into this line of reasoning that Assange wants to avoid being extradited to Sweden because he might then be extradited to the US and face the death penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallenda Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 Watergate = breaking in and stealing confidential data on paper Wikileaks = breaking in and stealing confidential data digitally I'm waiting to see if anyone else buys into this line of reasoning that Assange wants to avoid being extradited to Sweden because he might then be extradited to the US and face the death penalty. On 2nd thought, I'm not going to bother to wait. The idea that Assange could be extradited to the US and face the death penalty there (which has been said by Assange himself and also his attorneys) is false. Sweden and the UK are both part of the European Human Rights convention and legally can not extradite a suspect to a country where he is wanted for an offense for which he could receive capital punishment there. (it would also violate other international treaties they are part of, as well as domestic laws) The Ecuadoran government is now on record as acknowledging this, accepting that it is incorrect. No problem, just move the goal posts. Now it's solitary confinement they're concerned about: "While we accept that there are provisions in the European Human Rights Convention that stops the extradition of a suspect if they face the death penalty, what the UK government have failed to address over the last three months, including today, is the inhumane treatment that Mr Assange would face were he to be extradited to the USA, including solitary confinement for 23 hours a day, limited access to legal representatives and punitive sentencing should he be found guilty in a military of special court," he said. Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/19466791 It doesn't have quite the same resonance, does it. You can see Ecuador also isn't very good at this spin game. If there is this alleged secret sealed grand jury indictment, a grand jury is part of the US civil legal system, military courts don't use juries. Not sure what 'special courts' would be -- never heard of it. So either Assange has completely inept lawyers who are misinforming him, OR they're blowing smoke. If they are blowing smoke, it makes one wonder what they are trying to divert attention from. The answer seems obvious: the charges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panadolsandwich Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 On 2nd thought, I'm not going to bother to wait. The idea that Assange could be extradited to the US and face the death penalty there (which has been said by Assange himself and also his attorneys) is false. Sweden and the UK are both part of the European Human Rights convention and legally can not extradite a suspect to a country where he is wanted for an offense for which he could receive capital punishment there. Which would all be a very fine, and valid and you could say a well thought out response - except it's not based in reality. The US continues to flout so called international law, including human rights abuses, whenever it suits the US. Your comment is either naive, or ignorant; more likely both. Almost everybody knows that it's not the letter of the law that counts - the interpretation is far more important... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BelgianBoy Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 So, just out of curiosity Belgian dude, what are weak tactics? Criticizing Assange or questioning his credibility? Hmmmm. I think you'll find a consensus in agreement if you're talking about things like Abu Ghraib, or disinformation distributed by powerful government entities. Most folks here won't support that. Where you won't find consensus though is this portrait of Assange as some sort of supernatural moral being above questioning. Please. And he's not facing the death penalty anywhere other than fantasy. If the US government was as evil and all powerful as he makes it out to be, don't you think he would've been silenced a long time ago? The only request is to look at Assange with a critical eye. Can you do that? Or is he somehow elevated above reproach? That's what alarms me. This Jesus Christ complex in him and his adorers. first you are being condencending towards me, secondly if extraditing to the US, he will be facing terrorist charges as=published everywhere-, which still carries the death penalty in the US. and with the trumpup charges in Sweden, sure he cannt trust them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BelgianBoy Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 Watergate = breaking in and stealing confidential data on paper Wikileaks = breaking in and stealing confidential data digitally I'm waiting to see if anyone else buys into this line of reasoning that Assange wants to avoid being extradited to Sweden because he might then be extradited to the US and face the death penalty. you missed the point the one who stole the info is already in prison in the US, he did not steal any info, he only published it. BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pai mei Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 first you are being condencending towards me, secondly if extraditing to the US, he will be facing terrorist charges as=published everywhere-, which still carries the death penalty in the US. and with the trumpup charges in Sweden, sure he cannt trust them. Not condescending. It's being critical and direct. The most important question stands - can you look at Assange with a critical eye? To reiterate: Assange isn't facing the death penalty in the US. He does have a Jesus Christ complex. A willingness to support him without question or reservation feeds that and the circus this has become. That's not condescension. Another thing curious about Assange, he's always threatening to use these "nuclear" options. In other words, he supposedly has this important information to share, but he's not. He's dangling it and waiting to use it as a personal trump card. Speaks volumes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pai mei Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 you missed the point the one who stole the info is already in prison in the US, he did not steal any info, he only published it. BB That's also a good point. The majority of his information was taken from a US private who was having a crisis of conscience. Assange used that to shoot himself onto the international spotlight. He wasn't low key or focused on a real analysis of the information and what to do with it, but created a perpetual Assange self-promotional machine. In the process you have key members of wikileaks who created its architecture divorcing themselves from him out of disillusionment. Wikileaks could be a good thing, but not as the Assange PR tool. For me the best case scenario would be just to let him go. If he was extradited to the US, he certainly wouldn't be put to death but he could do jail time (and honestly, I might opt for death over a long stint in a US prison). And then you would have some of these guys shooting a collective load in their pants in ecstasy, now they have a true blue bonafide martyr. Bleh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BelgianBoy Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 Not condescending. It's being critical and direct. you called me Belgian dude, that came over to me as condescending...... The most important question stands - can you look at Assange with a critical eye? I think I can, earlier in this thread I called him a creep. To reiterate: Assange isn't facing the death penalty in the US. according to news here in Europe, he will face terrorist charges carrying a death sentence. He does have a Jesus Christ complex. agreed A willingness to support him without question or reservation feeds that and the circus this has become. I dont, I support his right to denounce the coverups...... Another thing curious about Assange, he's always threatening to use these "nuclear" options. In other words, he supposedly has this important information to share, but he's not. He's dangling it and waiting to use it as a personal trump card. Speaks volumes. again, yes, creepy BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallenda Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 Which would all be a very fine, and valid and you could say a well thought out response - except it's not based in reality. The US continues to flout so called international law, including human rights abuses, whenever it suits the US. Your comment is either naive, or ignorant; more likely both. Almost everybody knows that it's not the letter of the law that counts - the interpretation is far more important... Please think for a moment about what you just said. What you are describing as 'not based in reality' is what Assange himself has said would happen. He is the one that said he would be extradited back to the US from Sweden where he might face the death penalty. Remember, Assange, his attorneys and his supporters always use that word "extradite", and that word surely doesn't mean anything other than a certain legal process, which is very narrowly defined. But your point that the US would flout the law can be considered -- but now we're into your idea, not one posed by Assange or his attorneys (or if I'm wrong, please let me know what that scenario is and who posed it as a possibility--what's your source in other words). Or if you just want to pose your own scenario of how it might play out, feel free. A generality like "the US can do anything" isn't going to cut it, I want to hear some plausible way this might play out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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