BelgianBoy Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 Regret that. When my mates and I are having a 'serious' conversation we often interject dude to keep ourselves from getting carried away. It's a juvenile form of expression, deploying reminds me not to take myself or the conversation too serious. It's a kind backwards self-deprecation if you will. Thx for input. no problem, also English is not my mothertongue so maybe some subtles uses might excape me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallenda Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 The publishing of the internal US documents had been badly handled by Wikileaks. IMHO it was beyond their paygrade. It seems that Assange in the end became a megalomaniac and this combined with internal problems led to the destruction of the site and the loss of major documents. It said that a German Wikileaks member stole 5 GB of data and destroyed it later. http://en.wikipedia....eaks#Defections Yeah there was an announcement that there were going to be leaks that implicated Bank of America and holders of Swiss bank accounts, a promise that never was fulfilled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallenda Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 Typical "straw man" fallacy..you create an argument out of your fantasy, then proceed to attack it. Who the fuck said he was a supernatural moral being above questioning..only you! Death penalty or possibly decades in a US prison like Bradley Manning. What would you do if you were in his shoes...a no brainer, eh? Oh wait you are still saying death penalty is on the table. Why didn't you say so when I asked you earlier? Please check up on recent stories about this, let me know if you are sticking with this idea that he seriously fears the death penalty. Even if the US did something as incredible as what they did to get Bin Laden (night time commando raid by helicopter--and yes I do realize it's ridiculous), and Assange did somehow end up in the US to espionage charges with the death penalty sought, the only convictions in US history that have led to the death penalty, out of hundreds (there have been 150 just since WW2) were those of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg in 1951 for no less than passing the atomic bomb to the Soviets. Guys, really, it's just wacky to claim the death penalty for Wikileaks is a realistic possiblity. If you want to say that he might be extradited to the US to face charges which do not carry the death penalty, then I would actually agree with you--I do think that could happen. But this death penalty issue is just an already discredited piece of noise that won't go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamui Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 Oh wait you are still saying death penalty is on the table. Why didn't you say so when I asked you earlier? Please check up on recent stories about this, let me know if you are sticking with this idea that he seriously fears the death penalty. Even if the US did something as incredible as what they did to get Bin Laden (night time commando raid by helicopter--and yes I do realize it's ridiculous), and Assange did somehow end up in the US to espionage charges with the death penalty sought, the only convictions in US history that have led to the death penalty, out of hundreds (there have been 150 just since WW2) were those of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg in 1951 for no less than passing the atomic bomb to the Soviets. Guys, really, it's just wacky to claim the death penalty for Wikileaks is a realistic possiblity. If you want to say that he might be extradited to the US to face charges which do not carry the death penalty, then I would actually agree with you--I do think that could happen. But this death penalty issue is just an already discredited piece of noise that won't go away. We all know that the death penalty argument is _mostly_ a formal one. Assange doesn't want be extradited to the USA, because he doesn't to go to jail for life in the USA. Also as I said before, the on going extradition of the Piratebay founder from Cambo to Sweden shows the Sweden goes to great length including circumventing international laws and its own laws just to get a man who got convicted for just 12 months in jail for what is seen by many as a minor offense. Here is the most recent information on the whereabouts of the Piratebay founder. He is obviously held imprisoned at the Swedish embassy in PP, even though the ambassador denies it: Torrentfreak Link Assange is absolutely right neither to trust the Swedish government and the US government nor the Brit government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panadolsandwich Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 This whole thread, including the Title, and certainly the direction it has taken has nothing to do with General Topics related to Thailand. In fact it is incredibly spurious (and to me downright fraudulent) to in fact link Assange and Thaksin together - except in the wildest fantasy that grown men could even entertain the idea! It's a shameless attempt to allow members to discuss issues outside of the purview of this forum. I'm all for it - let the forum morph and find it's own bigots and armchair intellectuals - whom are no worse. I find the discourse embarrassing. And despite wishing to rejuvinate a dying forum, I wish it would be more discriminating... Just perhaps for once..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallenda Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 Assange is absolutely right neither to trust the Swedish government and the US government nor the Brit government. You forgot the Australian government. And the Swedish courts. And the British courts. And the BBC, the NY Times, the Guardian, his former Wikileaks cohorts, a US jury, and I'm probably missing a few. And there are probably more to come. It would sure be a lot more efficient to just not trust him. In the TED talk he gave, he discussed how he was moving Wikileaks to Sweden precisely for its superior protections and progressive attitude. So now are you trying to claim that the death penalty issue was never serious? It was serious enough that it's been written about as if it was meant seriously by every journalist covering this story, and responded to seriously by 2 European governments. The "haha I was only joking" defense is not going to cut it on this one. Come on admit it, he succeeded in getting you riled up with that one. It was bogus. This is the guy some out there (not sure about you personally) trust and argue on behalf of. I'm telling you, to me it looks like he's ready to say any ridiculous thing to avoid whatever he's avoiding, whether it's extradition to the US or a rape conviction in Sweden. But are you willing to blow your own credibility defending whatever nonsense he comes up with when it's later discredited? The first time I saw his death penalty claim, I thought it was a whopping lie, meant to rile up naive supporters. I remember having the same feeling when some friend sent me that Zeitgeist video a few years ago, immediately recognizing it as total BS. And the tediousness of having to explain why the 9/11 conspiracy theories were nonsense when they'd clearly swallowed it all whole. That's what this reminds me of. And I have to say, I lost some respect for those friends of mine who jumped down that rabbit hole. I mean, I was telling them, no-- my cousin and my stepdad both WATCHED the 2nd plane hit from across the river -- it really happened. But something had clicked in their heads and they just could not hear reason any more. Assange may be right or wrong in his political beliefs, but he probably broke laws in what he did, and in this world, you get to face that music. If you or I broke those laws, we'd have to face the consequences. That's what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robaus Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 This whole thread, including the Title, and certainly the direction it has taken has nothing to do with General Topics related to Thailand. In fact it is incredibly spurious (and to me downright fraudulent) to in fact link Assange and Thaksin together - except in the wildest fantasy that grown men could even entertain the idea! It's a shameless attempt to allow members to discuss issues outside of the purview of this forum. I'm all for it - let the forum morph and find it's own bigots and armchair intellectuals - whom are no worse. I find the discourse embarrassing. And despite wishing to rejuvinate a dying forum, I wish it would be more discriminating... Just perhaps for once..... Chill out with a spot of Jeremy Taylor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamui Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 So now are you trying to claim that the death penalty issue was never serious? It was serious enough that it's been written about as if it was meant seriously by every journalist covering this story, and responded to seriously by 2 European governments. The "haha I was only joking" defense is not going to cut it on this one. Come on admit it, he succeeded in getting you riled up with that one. It was bogus. This is the guy some out there (not sure about you personally) trust and argue on behalf of. I'm telling you, to me it looks like he's ready to say any ridiculous thing to avoid whatever he's avoiding, whether it's extradition to the US or a rape conviction in Sweden. But are you willing to blow your own credibility defending whatever nonsense he comes up with when it's later discredited? The first time I saw his death penalty claim, I thought it was a whopping lie, meant to rile up naive supporters. Assange may be right or wrong in his political beliefs, but he probably broke laws in what he did, and in this world, you get to face that music. If you or I broke those laws, we'd have to face the consequences. That's what happens. Yep, I think that the death penalty was _half_ serious, since I don't think that the USA were/is planning to execute him (I don't belong to any Assange fanclub, actually I don't like the guy at all). Anyway, as you wrote it's not clear if he committed any crime with Wikileaks at all. The USA hasn't even issued an indictment _officially_. But as the reactions of the Swedish and the Brit government show, there seem to happen a lot behind closed doors. As with the Piratebay founder's ongoing deportation from Cambo Sweden might try dirty tricks. http://torrentfreak....anakata-120810/ Which means: the usual rule of Swedish law might not apply to Assange, therefore I stick to my point that Assange is right to evade his extradiciton to Sweden. It seems that in copyright/secret documents cases even countries with a strong rule of law are eager to break them. And it's not the first time that US government and/or US organizations are behind it. See for example here: http://www.bbc.com/n...nology-18779866 By the way, I wouldn't talk like this if Assange was a common criminal who for example robbed or violated a person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robaus Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 You forgot the Australian government. And the Swedish courts. And the British courts. And the BBC, the NY Times, the Guardian, his former Wikileaks cohorts, a US jury, and I'm probably missing a few. And there are probably more to come. It would sure be a lot more efficient to just not trust him. In the TED talk he gave, he discussed how he was moving Wikileaks to Sweden precisely for its superior protections and progressive attitude. So now are you trying to claim that the death penalty issue was never serious? It was serious enough that it's been written about as if it was meant seriously by every journalist covering this story, and responded to seriously by 2 European governments. The "haha I was only joking" defense is not going to cut it on this one. Come on admit it, he succeeded in getting you riled up with that one. It was bogus. This is the guy some out there (not sure about you personally) trust and argue on behalf of. I'm telling you, to me it looks like he's ready to say any ridiculous thing to avoid whatever he's avoiding, whether it's extradition to the US or a rape conviction in Sweden. But are you willing to blow your own credibility defending whatever nonsense he comes up with when it's later discredited? The first time I saw his death penalty claim, I thought it was a whopping lie, meant to rile up naive supporters. I remember having the same feeling when some friend sent me that Zeitgeist video a few years ago, immediately recognizing it as total BS. And the tediousness of having to explain why the 9/11 conspiracy theories were nonsense when they'd clearly swallowed it all whole. That's what this reminds me of. And I have to say, I lost some respect for those friends of mine who jumped down that rabbit hole. I mean, I was telling them, no-- my cousin and my stepdad both WATCHED the 2nd plane hit from across the river -- it really happened. But something had clicked in their heads and they just could not hear reason any more. Assange may be right or wrong in his political beliefs, but he probably broke laws in what he did, and in this world, you get to face that music. If you or I broke those laws, we'd have to face the consequences. That's what happens. I think you have a naive belief in the infallible integrity of the media, the establishment and governments. Down through history, governments have used the law to do daft, hypocritical, corrupt, illegal, and evil things. Does it ever occur to you that you just might be living through one of those moments now? Who knows what might happen to Assange once extradited to the USA? Having witnessed the treatment of Bradley Manning I do not blame Assange for fighting extradition. We'd all do the same. We'd be dickheads if we didn't. Linking 9/11 conspiracy theories to the Julian Assange extradition issue is a non sequitur and a figment of your imagination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pai mei Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 So now, with the absence of any rational argument, you resort to personal insult. Thanks, a clear sign that the truth is hitting a raw nerve with you. Robaus, you have good intentions but I don't think we're going to agree that you present rational arguments and the truth. This isn't some academic detached discussion on your end, it's long monologues on the glory of Assange and subtle jabs to those who don't agree. (You know, the whole mushroom thing). Cliched. I should smack myself for biting. And yes, your presentation of 'the truth' has struck a raw nerve. It's called the funny bone. Ironically we probably don't differ THAT much in general perspective. No, if I was Assange I would definitely NOT want to be shipped off to the US. Uh uh. I just can't support the glamorization of Assange. No can do. If you're in Bangkok after November hit me up and I'll buy you a beer. Keep on rocking in the free world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.