The Western Men, are they kind or gullible?

[check_bin_krap]

"I think you put shygyes post in a far too negative light. I think he is just saying that thailand is not a level playing field. Ithink it is a very valid observation without ANY negative connotations about thai people. "

 

 

 

I might have jumped the gun. What I reacted most to was the comment "5-1 fair fight". I guess you get a bit touchy when some of the finest people you know are Thai and and you read that as a description of Thai character? Anyway, enough from me on this thread.

 

 

[phoenix]

Thank you for your post, Jasmine. It is nice to get some selfdisclosure form one of our female members, too.

 

 

 

Jasmine: >why there are so many of these young/not so young Thai women who feel that the Western men who they barely know, can help financially. Is it because that they see these men as very kind perhaps gullible?<

 

 

 

and > still some of the Westerners are willing to help the distressed Thai women, I feel it is more than an average kindness. Ok, the love, lust, beauty (the Thai women can not help it), and whatever else are in the equation, still the kindness. Do you feel that an average Westerner is kind or is it something else?<

 

 

 

 

 

I can?t really speak for the average western man, only try and ask myself what my motivations were. Yes, I have ?contributed? more to Nok and a few others than the average ?fee for service?. Why?

 

 

 

Crash 999 :> There is a level of gratification in donating money to those in need that is far higher than spending it on onesself. I can't believe that this feeling isn't universal<

 

 

 

There is something in what Crash says, but it is more complex than that. If just giving to those in need was all I needed to feel good, I could have given the whole lot to some good cause, Red Cross, Oxfam, whatever, and felt good. But instead, I selected my own ?good cause?, in the form or a BG, and decided it would make me feel good if she would better herself, get a qualification that would allow her to earn without selling her body. That would make me ?feel good?. Feeling good in the long term.

 

 

 

Mad Max: >I think there are a lot of guys who help financially fully knowing the score. I hardly call that gullible. But yes, there is a lot of dumb schmucks out there, ranging from "merely gullible" to "beyond help."<

 

 

 

Now, I?m sure she had learned enough to suss me out, work out what makes me tick, and which of my buttons to push to make the money flow. And I don?t think I was all that gullible, I knew that at the time, that there was a level of ?game? involved, but didn?t mind, as long as she continued to study. I reasoned that in the end, the skills and qualification gained would give her a fair chance at making her own choices. If she really felt ?Working bar not good for me, not good for my head? she?d have the choice of doing something else.

 

 

 

I think, rather than only the ?feelgood? factor for me, there also may have been a little ?middleclass liberal guilt?, both at the disparity in wealth between me and her, me and most people in LOS, but maybe also about me availing myself of her services, her beauty, youth etc. Guilt about satisfying my lust in the manner I did, e.g. originally through prostitution. If I could ?assist this one woman to rise above the scene, and leave it, I would no longer associate with a ?prostitute? but with an honest woman, and it would have justified a little my involvement with her. (I didn?t reason this consciously, but it was certainly an unconscious factor)

 

And again, I?m sure she knew very well at how to recognize this ?guilt motivation? and encourage it. But it takes two to tango, to to play the game. And I believe I had my eyes wide open.

 

 

 

Then there is the ?feel good factor? on the very short term, the instant gratification stuff. No, not the sex (at least, not just the sex), but the sensation I get from a genuine spontaneous smile on her face when I do something nice to her that she hadn?t asked for, or didn?t expect. It is the thing Thalenoi mentioned a few months ago. That single factor, the happy spontaneous smile may have been the biggest motivator of all. Kindness by giving? No, just reward for that wonderful feeling. It is that smile I miss the most now.

 

 

 

In the end, although my contributions to her and her family were substantial, they didn?t really make a dent in my own assets, so I can?t really make to much of my ?altruism?. I think that the flipside of being (relatively) wealthy ( at least in relation to some others) is that you do have a responsibility towards others.

 

 

[Guest]

It's interesting how attitudes towards Thais seem to span the entire spectrum--from idolizing to demonizing.

 

 

 

I used to be on the idolizing side. I thought maybe it was a bit of an urban legend that Thai guys attack farang in packs.

 

 

 

But now, when I hear a comment like "5-1 fair fight" I too get a reaction. Not only do I remember all first-hand accounts I've heard from others. I also get an instant flashback of the scene I witnessed from less than 30 feet, in front of Pattaya Royal Garden.

 

 

 

A farang got off the baht bus. Two motocycles with two Thai guys each came out of nowhere. The riders jumped off, and one of them started hitting the farang with a baseball bat. After perhaps 5-10 hits they both jumped back on the motorcycles and took off high speed.

 

 

 

Maybe if I didn't see that I too would be thinking about some of the finest Thai people I know.

[check_bin_krap]

Madmax, I somehow have to reply to your post as well. You are right, many Thais are lowlife scumbags. And as a tourist you are an easy target if you don't take care of yourself. This is not unique to Thailand.

 

 

 

Some people seem to let go off all sense and frequent joints and mix with people they would never have dared to at home. In areas where most Thais stay away from.

 

 

 

I would maintain that "5-1 fight" is not a common trait in Thais, and that some farangs could use a dose of common sense when they travel. Especially in 3rd world countries where they are often regarded as walking ATM's.

 

 

 

I am not referring specifically to the episode you mention. I have no knowledge of what was behind that attack.

[pattaya127]

this sounds like paid thugs. A few farangs run in trouble with the wrong people. i certainly never heard of wanton attacks as such, but i heard of a few farangs who had troubles with local mafias. Thailand is no stranger to killings and violence, the contrary would be surprising.

[pattaya127]

I thought maybe it was a bit of an urban legend that Thai guys attack farang in packs.

 

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And right you were. Add up all the rapes, muggings and killing of farangs in one year in Thailand, and i doubt it will add up to consequential numbers. Can I ask what other reports you heard of farangs being attacked in packs? Not merely shuffled and robbed: attacked.

[pattaya127]

on another note, I know this eurasian old guy who was raised in Vietnam up until the 40's, Lived in Laos too, he once told me that thais in these countries had a reputation for "stabbing in the back". He meant both figuratively and actually. I enjoyed immensely being among thais, but I guess they are no better or worse than other nationalities, in the scheme of things. I know that in Issan, there can be rivalry between youth of different villages/districts, and it can lead to gang violence. So, I do believe violence is no stranger to Thailand. It makes no difference as to all the things i love about Issan or Thailand.

[Guest]

Interesting post and I applaud your openness. Thanks for sharing!

 

 

 

I think western men are kind. Why? It?s a combination of things and part of it is your Thai background which in turn affects your perception. The other things that come into play are religion, standard of living, and western female culture.

 

 

 

It?s not hard to see that the west is living kind of high on the hog relative to other parts of the world. I won?t say it?s because of anything having to do with our culture its more of a fact of getting the luck of the draw, America specifically.

 

 

 

What you deem as kindness, most folks here in the US would expect. In general, the dominate religion is Christianity, and although we all don?t consider ourselves to be holy rollers, its still well represented in our culture, "Give from your Christian heart". So as one member posted, it ?s a source of good feelings to help someone that is less fortunate than yourself. We are programmed to feel guilty if we do not help those who are perceived to be less fortunate. Hence all the pan handling and charitable contributions that goes on today in the US. Maybe it feeds our egos somewhat. We want to believe we are better so we must show the world that we are threw charitable deeds.

 

 

 

Concerning Thai woman, they make it very easy as well. I think western woman are further along the path when it comes to arm wrestling social norms for social position. The flip side is that in order to get their (western women) piece of the pie, they tend to take on a male personas. The man no longer gives, but instead the woman is just getting what she deserves. With that being the pervasive mind set of the western woman, there is no longer the feeling that you are helping or giving. Matter of fact, the men may turn away. Hence the term "you greedy b***h". With that said, in general, Thai woman are very appealing from an attitude stand point. Thai woman, on the other hand, may feel the same way as western woman, but culturally they will not express it the same way. The Thai woman gets what she wants, but she didn?t have to wrestle (act like a man) to get it. I think Buddhism plays a big role in that.

 

 

 

So, I think western men are kind, but it?s probably perceived to be better than non-western men by Thai woman. Ask a western woman the same question and they?ll tell you a different answer. I?m sure of it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bibblies]

"..By the way, a "knight in shining armor" can be refreshing!.."

 

 

 

As a little experiment, try mentioning your finger-size warts and enormous hump on your back to see how much protection you get then!

 

 

 

Seriously, as you mention knights in shining armour, it does remind me that I spent a large part of my formative youth reading these sort of tales - King Arthur, gallant knights, noble Greek heroes. I think that must have sunk in and can leave me rather vulnerable at times. I think that we (I'm an Englishman) do have a very ingrained sense of fair-play that I haven't really sensed in Thais, though it may be there.

 

 

[jasmine]

Dear Bibblies,

 

 

 

It is NICE to feel protected. I am quite independent but I do not turn down a gentlemen's offer to be gallant.

 

 

 

I also grew up with my father's English books, knights and all, that was what made me want to learn English and my father started to teach me when I was around 5 years old.

 

 

 

I have not read much of those books any more and I have lost some memories on who and who for the names of kings and knights, however, my husband just bought me a new tape on the movie "Camelot", will spend Saturday night on it.

 

 

 

What has bothered me most about the Thais are the way the Thai men are so...., I am lost for words, well, do not seem to have much curtesy to women. Mind you, my father was a polite man and my brother caters to our mother and his wife (and me when I am there).

 

 

 

I never forget an incident in High School in Bangkok. We went camping on a beach, girls cooked and boys chopped meat and vegetable and washed dishes, fetched water and built fire. There were several heads of pineapples for desert and none of the boys knew how to cut them up. They all said that their mothers or maids did such things for them. Helpless bunch of duds!

 

 

 

" we (I'm an Englishman) do have a very ingrained sense of fair-play that I haven't really sensed in Thais,"

 

 

 

I do admit that the "fair play" sense is lacking in Thais nowadays, much more than when I was growing up. My brother and mother warned me all the time to watch ourselves when we visit Thailand. I need to analyze on this "fair play " concept more. Living in the States for over 30 years, I think I take it for granted.

 

 

 

I insist "a gallant knight is refreshing"! Most of all, a gentleman is appreciated.

 

 

 

Cheers!

 

 

 

 

 

Cheers!