sinsott question

[Guest]

jjsushi said:

SkiBum said:

Sinsott question:

 

I too have had many thoughts on the Sin sott idea...mainly, bad as It seems about money and such. I'm sure many of us feel similiar about Sin Sott...mainly, don't like it!

 

My father pointed something out to me about Sin Sott that brought it in perspective: Sin sott to him, is about respecting ones culture.

 

He placed several examples before me: So when she is with her girl friends and they bring up the subject 1. she will lie about it. 2. she will lose face because you didn't pay or 3. she will again lie about the amount and lessen her feelings about you...as this is important...Sin Sot.

 

He went on: If she pays her own sin sott then she will always know that you truely value money more then her and hold her in low esteem or value.

 

He stated, "Not respecting your wifes culture makes little sense when you plan to marry into it...women want to be loved, held in high esteem, valued and taken care of. To under value how sin sott plays into this is immature, will cause major problem down the road and will only cause harm...what is 300,000 to 800,000 baht anyways...don't you spend that already each time you go see her."

 

Pieces taken from a recent conversation with my old man...

 

SkiBum

 

I tend to think of it the other way around. I want to know how much does she values me and my cultures principles. Does the thai woman value her culture more than her husband's wishes? I personally don't wish to compete with culture in my relationship.

 

Assuming we are dealing with a poor family, I am against sinsot, unless it is equivalent to what a Thai man would pay.

 

Unless I am going to live and raise my family in Thailand the woman would be moving to be with me to the States, so she will be in the American culture moreso than the Thai culture.

I would also be supporting her until she can mind a way to make a financial contribution to the marriage.

She will also be recieving all of the benefits of eventual American citizenship whereas I will have none in Thailand.

 

I am sure that some portion of our income would find it's way back to Thailand to help her family.

 

Divorce laws in the States pretty much guarantee her a nice benefit based on my income and means so the purpose of the sinsot is negated by US divorce laws.

 

So when you add all of that up it seems rather silly to be paying sinsot in this day and age and if a chick insisted on it then she can go find another groom.

 

The only exceptions I would make to the rule are if i was living inThailand; the family would foot the wedding bill at the least equivalent to the sinsot amount; if the chick and her family had their own financial means, meaning the sinsot would be a pittance and it is more for ceremony than anything else and I would naturally get it back or it would be put to some agreed upon positive use.

 

I hear this... Wait, you already have a GF whom you take care of. If you collected all that money for the 2plus years you've given it to her it would be some 500,000 to 700,000 plus, likely. You, by your own admission, give GF's money why is Sinsot different? It shows your ability to take care of a TG and gives you face both issues seem important to you?

 

The figure of Sinsot was 300,000 plus... I should have placed it around 200,000 plus, including gold and gifts. You may offer the airline ticket to the US, the ring, gold and cash as the sinsot! These can all be negoitated in the arrangement! I have a friend (falang) who paid around 250,000 inclussive of these!

 

If a divorce takes place this is true for any woman from anywhere...she will get something from you. This is really the issue for many guys and the root reason Sinsot isn't liked!

 

Skibum

[Guest]

Hi Thai3,

 

The more I've studied this, the more it seems to come down to very individual situations. A lot has to do with what the girl 'thinks' she owes people who brought her up, as much as anything else.

 

On the face of it, it is supposed to go along the lines of wealth and purity. Marrying a girl from a wealthy family will require a greater sin sot, as will the fact whether she has been married before, has kids, was ever a b/g, etc.

 

But there are no hard-set rules, to be sure. A couple of things I would remember is that the face thing is very real. Thai guys have to go through this, also. It's usually involves one persons chosen from each side of the family, to be the main negotiators. And no Thai girl is going to be happy that her husband only thinks she is worth 10,000 baht. There is a face-saving issue there for her also, even though her not saying so. It's an antiquated tradition, but is still alive and well there.

 

But of course, the most important thing of all, is to have it very straight what will happen to the money after. If it's being returned, then who cares about the amount? But very important to get the ground rules all worked out first. Who will pay for wedding? If family will return some, then how much, and in what form, etc.

 

Some will keep all, but turn around a buy a house for the newlyweds, some will keep all but pay for the wedding, some will return all minus cost of wedding, etc. Many, many different ways it can work, and can have many different things at play going on with this. Monthly payment to support family can also be tied in.....They are dead-set on 500,000? Fine, but you can make it clear the usual monthly payments for life from wife, will stop. It can actually get quite creative.

 

Thai/Thai sin sot negotiations can often take months. Learn from that. It's a very big deal, and should not be taken lightly. If it's only for saving face, then use that to your advantage. Nothing wrong with you placing a 1 million baht check on the table along with 2 baht of gold, with the signature of "Khun Micky Mouse" scribbled on the check. Everybody wins there!

 

Just keep in mind there are no set rules, and don't let anyone tell you different.

 

I personally have not gotten there yet. Family is not poor, and they know I am far from rich. So will most likely be money on the table that will be returned, probably minus wedding cost, which I would insist upon paying anyway.

 

Just as a note, my gf went to a wedding last year with a Taksin relative marrying a Thai actress??? (I know she was somewhat famous for some reason), and the money was 1 million baht. There was a lot of other stuff on the table, to be sure, but anything approaching 1 million baht should be for a substantial reason, in the Thai/Thai world. If your tirak's parents are asking in that range, there should be a really strong compelling reason for doing so (i.e. she's a Neurosurgeon at Bumrungrad, etc.)

 

I was just thinking of last year, a read about a girl who came back to USA to live with bf, and after 3 years she called back home saying he proposed to her. Father said if she did, she would be disowned by family, and she was on the next plane home, leaving him stittng there, in a daze. ::

 

Best advise: Take it very seriously, but do your homework also. Check what is the norm in your tiraks area/home town. Don't be a sucker with this. It will come back to haunt you. Play hardball, with any unreasonable requests. If you don't, you'll be seen as an easy free gravy train, and have to deal with it for every month of your life, from all members of her family.

 

It's a crucial time....as they will be looking at what you are made of here, and is also a good window of opportunity to see what you're up against, and what they are made of, also. The demeanor of both sides during this period, will speak volumes to you both. Nothing gets down quicker, or wipes away the facade of false manners and tradition, like good old hard cash.

 

HT

[shygye]

[color:"green"] And no Thai girl is going to be happy that her husband only thinks she is worth 10,000 baht. There is a face-saving issue there for her also, even though her not saying so. It's an antiquated tradition, but is still alive and well there. [/color]

 

You are forgetting Jasmine. No sin sot paid and family happy.

[Guest]

[color:"purple"] Hi Thai3,

 

 

I am a Thai woman married farang. For Thais, the amount of Sinsot depends on the bride?s background, her family, job and education. Sinsot is like a value of the woman in Thailand. My husband and I had many problems with Sinsot. This is a very sensitive subject to discuss. He thought the same way as you that I should respect farang culture. I do respect farang culture. In my case, my parents would like him to put Sinsot in my bank account. They were afraid that my husband would leave me and I would have nothing to start my life again. I am 30 right now. I quit my IT job that I had worked for 7 years moving to the Middle-East married my farang husband. If something happens to my marriage, I have to return to Thailand looking for a job. A 30+++ woman, stopping working in IT field a few years, can I find my job in the same field again? Maybe but it won?t be easy. I want to work where I live right now. Unfortunately, it is a small town. Nothing comes up yet. Was I stupid to change my life and move to live on the desert? People don?t respect Asian people here. I dislike the culture. Whatever! I am not feeling sorry for myself. This is my choice and I have to deal with it.

 

OK. After I talked to my parents, they agreed not to put money in my bank account. They would return all money to my husband. Was it fair for farang? The amount of money my parents asked from my husband was less then what we would ask from Thai guys. My husband said Thais always thought about money!! Maybe it?s true but this is the part of Thai wedding. Long time ago they also had dowry in some western countries, I think.

 

Finally we agreed that we wouldn?t have the wedding because we have already been married in the Middle-East. At that time, we just signed papers. My husband said we would have a good Thai wedding later. But when it came to Sinsot, he couldn?t accept it.

 

You know what? In the end, my parents paid for the wedding, also provided Sinsot to save face and proved to people that their daughter deserved this respect.

 

I told you my story because I don?t want other normal Thai girls who don?t get married for money feel in the same way I feel. It hurts whenever I think about my wedding. Don't I deserve the respect of my culture?

 

If the bride?s parents return all Sinsot and you just pay for the cost of the wedding, should it be alright?

 

In your case, it depends on your girlfriend if she would like you to give Sinsot to her stepparent.

 

 

Sorry that I have to bring my story up!!!

 

Good luck?

[/color]

[BelgianBoy]

Hi Snowdrop,

 

Thanks for sharing.

Do know that dowry as you mentionned in the west, is for the girls to bring into the marriage, not for the boys to pay.....

 

As for sinsot, it is apparantly a Thai Buddist tradition.

I'll marry my GF, but she is catholic, no sinsot or what so ever in those circles.

 

A farang friend of mine married a general's daughther, he showed a bankcheque for sinsot, same cheque was returned to him, his inlaws did not need that money. Furthermore he paid for the wedding and the reception for 500+ people at the Shangri-La in BKK, but with all those money presents received, they made over 200K Bt net profit

 

BB

[gummigut]

Snowdrop:

 

Thanks for posting. I'm sorry to hear about your problems with sinsot.

 

Personally, I find that if the money is returned to the couple (even in the bride's name) is enough for me.

 

Now I just need to find the bride

 

Best of luck to you Snowdrop

 

<<burp>>

[thai3]

 

 

I beleive it is a chinese tradition rather than thai/Buddhist, maybe flasher can tell us as he has lived there since 1920-peter

[thai3]

 

The middle east, how can anyone survive there? it's like living on the moon, and mai mee luktung ::

It's a fine balance at times between respecting the culture and being taken advantage of. I don't see why he did not agree to pay it if it was coming back to you anyway, after all what's his is yours and what's yours is his ::

Please post some more, like every day, thai ladies are as rare here as a good night out in Mecca chock dee-peter

[torrenova]

Pay what a Thai would pay and no more. Is it coming back after the ceremony ? In many cases it should do, although perhaps to the wife rather than the husband. If the family wants it, then they are out to bleed you dry.

 

I have a friend whose previously married bar girl, with one child, asked for Bt300,000. He is / was in the process of building a house, she sold all the gold he gave her and conveniently "lost" the money (around Bt75,000). Finally he saw the light but only after talking to others.

 

I'm not getting married but my girl knows that I won't be parting with any large sums.

[CondomKing]

It seems like these sinsot discussions are never ending. I guess that just shows what a complex aspect of the marriage (relationship) it can be.

 

Just from reading the previous posts I have a couple of comments to make. I do agree that, ideally, it would be great if some attention was paid to the Farang culture and approach to marriage, expenses and expectations. But, if you think about it, besides the fact that we are talking about marriage in Thailand and discussing it with perspective Thai in laws and the groom's family (parents?) are not around to present the Falang pov, you really can't expect unsophisticated Thais to have any idea or understanding of foreign customs.

 

So there you are. It is a situation that you just have to deal with and, as HT pointed out, it can be very a different process and have very different long lasting effects in each individual situation. It is probably the first (and maybe last) chance the groom will get to interact with and show his new in laws what kind of a person he is. Given the ever present possibility to be misunderstood even in everyday dealings with Thai people it is really critical, IMO, to be decisive and yet respectful and will probably take some creativity to also appear to be somewhat generous and fair to all concerned including yourself.

 

I know that it was a tightrope walk for me, and a mixture of putting my wife's feelings at the forefront of the proceedings while also keeping in mind the individual personalities of her family members, especially mom, who can't seem to hold onto money.

 

I also had no reserve funds at the time, my usual financial condition. It was all I could do to scare up the 100,000 B that we showed in cash which was more impressive than a check for an upcountry wedding. This was the amount originally asked for and which mom assumed she would be able to keep. I was able to use most of it wisely, give mom a taste and even get some of it back into my pocket.

 

We used 60,000 get mom's house deed back from the bank, I deducted 20,000 B I had lent the family a few months before to keep mom out of real trouble for not paying a way overdue phone bill, and the remaining 20 K, I let her keep. Everyone was happy and all I had to worry about was the whereabouts of the cash during the proceedings. There was a well respected little old lady given the duty of sitting next to the money all day long and then returning it when we stopped by her home after the festivities.

 

BTW, I also gave my wife what she wanted which was 10 baht of gold and while that was tough to come up with it has seen us through some dark days, fetching a pretty penny at the local pawn shop whenever we need big cash in a hurry.

 

Since, ultimately, everyone really wants this to work out it shouldn't really be much of a problem to come up with a solution that will satisfy everyone's concerns. IMO, sometimes the farang will have to change his viewpoint a little to make the new wife happy. I think it's worth it.