Violence in Living Doll

[bust]

wonderlust said:

Personally I don't engage in physical violence.

Maybe not but you seem to advocate it. Sometimes senseless stuff. Just ask OP

[khwaimaisabai]

Paillote said:

Honestly though, in my non-native understanding of English, I would thought that "Fuck you" rate pretty low on the nasty scale.

Hi P,

Sorry, but - wrong.

Difficult to think of anything worse, actually.

Dangerous to use swear words/impolite slang in a non-native language.

Khwai

[Zorro]

Gadfly1 said:

don't buy the story as presented, sorry, I just don't.

I have suggestion: perhaps it doesn't matter if we buy or don't buy the story, because, perhaps, there is an altogether more fundamental point here. And that point is this: with BGs, things can go very bad very quickly and become very dangerous.

 

We have seen other stories about other events here before. Perhaps they are all biased, but they are consistent on a few themes. One of those themes is the unpredictability of the bar scene. How events can spiral dramatically from a misunderstanding or little remark into a dangerous and sometimes lethal encounter.

 

 

 

siders, I know Thailand must seem particularly placid and Thais, even in the bars, ever so polite and nice. But notice the number of stories here about violence against Farangs and unbelievable "suicides". And increased press reports of rapes and muders. The event described here happened in a bar, but it does tie in with these other events even if you don't buy the story (I am sure there is more to it) because it illustrates how quickly things can change. Even if the OP bears some, most or all of the blame, the rapid and unpredicatable escalation of events is remarkable.

 

I know from personal experience that events here can change radidly and unpredicatably, and that Farangs often cannot tell when it is coming. Maybe I am particuarly dense, but after more than ten years living here, I still cannot tell. I used to tell abusive BGs they are acting impolitely. Now I don't even risk doing that because the response can be so unpredictable and potentially lethal.

 

 

That is how i see things as well.

 

Everytime a farang gets bashed, knifed, drugged, conned or killed there seems to be posters here who say that the farang is somehow responsible or not completely blameless.

WTF. There is none so blind as those that don't want to see.

Thailand has serious social problems that manifest themselves in outpourings of random and spontaneous crime and violence often fueled by a drug and drink culture. I am fed up with the excuses being made by posters here about not understanding Thai culture and excusing Thais for retaliatory actions far in excess of the perceived insult or lack of cultural awareness.

Thailand is heavily dependent upon tourism and as such should be a bit more tolerant and understanding of cultural faux pas and percieved sleights. I don't know of any other country where there is so many tourist deaths in suspicous circumstances, druggings, robbings bashing etc than Thailand. If Thailand continues to run the course it is running it is going to lose one of its most lucrative industries.

[simie]

Gadfly, i tend to agree with your conclusions on the attitudes present in many Thai BG's these days and the violence that is present just below the surface in Thailand. I still love it in Thailand and generally feel safer there than in London. But i think many punters still look at it through rose tinted glasses. Thats fine for the normal tourist who in most cases will have no problems and an enjoyable holiday. But for tourists and expats who use the naughty nightlife i think more thought ( i know that can be hard at times when under the influence of drink?!) and care is called for. I think a number of issues contribute to the problem. As you mentioned drugs are a cause and its hardly surprising that some of these girls behave the way they do when they are out their heads half the time on drink or/and drugs. Many of the girls, especially some of the freelancers on the street are more thieves and scam artists than they are actually prostitutes. Another problem is the increased westernisation of Thailand and an influx of punters many of whom seem happy to let these girls treat them like shit and then still give them their business. This has led to a big change in the way the average tart regards many punters. Ten years ago a large % of the girls knew what they where and even if they did'nt like the punters they regarded them as being higher up the social pole than themselves and treated them accordingly. Now more and more many of these girls (especially in the more high profile ago gos) seem to regard themselves as some sort of minor celebrety and the punters with open contempt. IMHO punters need to be more choosy these days who they give their business too. Reward good attitude and service appropriately and refuse to give their business to girls/bars that show or support bad attitude and service.

Simie.

[Solomick]

wonderlust said:

Last time I was on Walking Street the place was packed with western men and Thai girls. Most of the western men looked more than capable of defending themselves. I doubt the scholarly looking OP is typical of the sort of western man you'll find in Pattaya, many of whom are thugs who are no strangers to violence. The only Thai men were fairly puny looking barbecue sellers. Personally I don't engage in physical violence but I don't accept that one phone call from a Thai whore and hordes of Thai warriors would flood into Walking Street, slaying the fearful little farangs as they go.

 

so somebodys appearance automatically makes them a thug and no stranger to violence. ::

Sorry but that whole reply is the most pitiful statement I have read.

[Old Hippie]

I was in a Soi Cowboy bar last year, two Japanese guys caused a rucus up stairs, a Dek serve came down stairs, yelling, ran behind the bar, got a baseball bat, and ran up stairs, tons of Thai guys poured in off the street and ran up stairs, the Japanese guys come rolling down the stairs, get tossed out in the street, hey, more Thai guys out side, kicking the Japanese guys, More Thais comming down the street. I was surprised how fast Thai guys showed up for this. I never saw that many Thai guys on Soi cowboy before. Maybe they can't out number the farangs at that exact moment, but they will fight , and fight hard. As I said, out numbered or not, only takes one with a weapon to make you a statistic...NOT WORTH IT!

[Guest]

OK agreed, but then why go into an area that is rampent with maladjusted punters and Bar girls? Go into these places, and fail to check yourself, and you can damned well expect something to happen...Then who's fault is it really?

This sounds like you are saying that anyone who goes to Pattaya, NEP or Patpong deserves whatever happens to them. Are you saying its their own damn fault for going to these places in the first place and they deserve whatever happens? If so, I guess Farangs frequenting these venues are fair game for anything, including robbery and murder.

 

Or is the ambigious qualifer, "and fail to check yourself", intended as a check against this conclusion. If so, I don't think it works because I have no idea what that means and I doubt any else does either. Indeed, the ambiguity of this qualifier demonstrates the dangerousness of the position you are adopting (more about this further in this post).

 

I agree that you do need to be careful in these venues and sometimes eat a little crow to avoid getting seriously hurt. But I don't think that justifies this sort of crap. For example, is an abusive BG (and by that, I mean a BG who is not only pulling the standard "you kee-nee-oo" trite, but also whining for drinks, trying to stuff my bin with tabs and pinching my arm) justified in threatening me with a beer bottle when I simply say she is acting impolitely for, well, acting impolitely? Of course not. If this sort crap gets worse and goes unchecked, Thailand's tourism industry will not only continue to miss the mark, but suffer seriously.

 

You mentioned a couple of Japanese guys getting the crap kicked out of them outside a Soi Cowboy bar for who-knows-what. What you saw is consistent with what I typically see when there is a violent incident between a foreigner and Thais.

 

I don't see what precipitated the attack, but I do see the outcome. A violent wolf pack attack where the foreigner is out numbered as much as ten to one, the attack is brutal and relentless (even while the Farang is pleading for his life ? and yes I have seen this and mentioned it here before) and is seriously injured or - in at least one case - may have been killed. When I ask about what precipitated such a vicious attack, I am often met with hostility by Thais in the immediate area of the attack. If you talk to other foreigners who have any idea about what caused the attack, you learn it was something relatively trivial, such as a dispute over a few drinks in the bill where no one is exactly sure who was right and wrong. But one thing is clear: it certainly does not justify maiming or killing someone. And yet some here - I am not singling you out - will go to preposterous lengths to try to justify these attacks.

 

We aren't doing ourselves or Thailand any favors by trying to excuse this sort of nonsense.

 

It is absolutely right that you should just walk away when confronted in these environments - it is not worth your life even when you are clearly in the right. But it is also imperative that foreigners not assist or cooperate in excusing such reprehensible behavior. It should be publicized and it should be made as public as possible, because that is ultimately our best check against this sort of crap.

[khwaimaisabai]

Gadfly1 said:

I agree that you do need to be careful in these venues and sometimes eat a little crow to avoid getting seriously hurt.

Hi gadfly,

I think that is all OH is saying. Of course these things are not justified, but given the environment, bad things are likley to happen.

Of course it's bad for Thailand's reputation but I doubt that any individual action by punters, bar owners or bar girls will make a lot of difference. Although not exactly common, these incidents get to be seen as the norm.

Khwai

[wonderlust]

I certainly don't advocate violence and nothing I have posted suggests I do. I just don't buy the idea that westerners have to be as fearful of Thais as some posters here obviously are.

[Guest lazyphil]

Cautious not fearful........