Racism

[Coss]

I think racism is dependant on Race, i.e. black, white, jewish, muslim, maori, klingon.

 

Mind you it was probably born of "I don't like that lot from the next village 'caus they're bigger smaller, taller, whiter, darker" etc etc.

 

Small minded.

 

We each are more closely related to each other than any two chimpanzee brothers, DNA wise that is, and all descended from the the same 16 maternal lines apparently.

 

Except for the politicians and marketing geniuses, completely separate species with a high incidence of lying genes.

 

Cheers

 

Coss

[rickfarang]

Racism is bigotry, but not the other way around.

 

Officialy sanctioned or condoned racism inside Thailand:

 

? Some business establishments bar or treat people of certain ethnicits poorly.

-Bambook Beer Bar not serving blacks comes to mind.

- Japanese-only clubs around BKK

- Rerusal of some hotels to admit certain Asians.

 

? The Thai government officialy supports double pricing for admission to national parks. The double pricing policy is enforced based on race.

 

? Many Thai businesse change higher prices to non-Thais, including Thai Airways, which is controlled by the Thai Government.

 

? Non-Thais cannot own land inside Thailand (with few small exceptions.)

 

? Non-Thais cannot own controlling interest in a Thai corporation.

 

? Mpm-Thais cannot have a checking account.

 

 

Did I miss anything?

[Steve]

I still don't define a lot of what I see as racism in the traditional sense that I have come to understand it. Nationalism and economics defines a lot of what we call racism on here.

Aren't falangs accepted in middle class and upper middle class families for marriage? That's my understanding, please correct if I'm wrong about this. Middle class Koreans are rarely if ever accepted in Japanese middle and upper class families. Middle class minorities in the USA, particularly latinos and blacks are rarely acceptable marriage material to middle and upper middle class white Americans. Aboriginals in Austrailia the same, etc. There are exceptions but its the rule primarily I think.

 

A falang exec with a good corporate job would be readily accepted wouldn't they?

[Old Hippie]

"...Aren't falangs accepted in middle class and upper middle class families for marriage? That's my understanding, please correct if I'm wrong about this..."

 

I think tolerated more than accepted, and it is viewed as financially benificial as well, as long as the money and Face are there, the relationship will saty tolerable to the family...in many cases, NOT ALL...

 

"...A falang exec with a good corporate job would be readily accepted wouldn't they?..."

 

I would say this is a very good example of what I am talking about, money/status make a lot of the difference...

 

 

I seriously doubt MOST guys speak Thai or Lao well enough to have a conversation with the family, and really know what is going on, or really get to know them...

[Zorro]

Thais in general are extremely racist.

 

It is deeply rooted in their culture, institutions and daily lives.

 

It is very hard for foreigners to gain Thai citizenship or to own land or to take a leading role in Thai society. The success of the TRT is further testament to the xenophobic attitude of many Thais which is reinforced in the political dialog and daily lives of the average Thai. There is a rigid class structure in Thailand and the outsider or non Thai is at the very bottomof this structure.

 

The average Thai probably doesn't even recognise what most of us westerners perceive as racism as the average Thai sees things the way they have been educated and the way their society operates and that is inherently rascist.

 

Western societies societies were much the same if you go back a hundred years or even a little less than that.

However most western socieites are much more cosmopolitan or if you like multicultural than they were a hundred years ago.

Thailand is still a relatively homogenous society with a single precieved national indentity. It has not been forced to reassess its values or traditions because there is no percieved need to do so as everyone knows there place and where they fit.

[..]

Zorro said:

The average Thai probably doesn't even recognise what most of us westerners perceive as racism as the average Thai sees things the way they have been educated and the way their society operates and that is inherently rascist.

This is 100% spot on. Mrs Tiger is the nicest peoson that you would want to meet. But after we got married (many moons ago) and moved to Sillypore, she was in a quandry and I learned just what you speak of. You see, she was homesick and hanging with the Chinese in Sillypore was OK, but just not the same. I figured out that there were a lot of Thais in Lucky Plaza and suggested that we go there and she could find Thai things, eat Thai food and yak away in Thai with Thai people.

 

That was not an option. "They are servants or garee and are from Issan!! I *cannot* talk to them!" she told me. I was shocked, as I had not seen her be racist before nor even act better than anyone else. But we were always around people of her social strata, so it never came up. And she explained that she did not dislike them, but this was simply not done for Thai people. As you said, not trying to be evil, but that was the way she learned social skills.

 

I just told her that she needed to get over herself and if you want to speak to your fellow countrymen, you need to get along with everybody. She stewed, and I pressed, for a few weeks and I finally won (gee, I can count those moments on one hands LOL). We went to Lucky Plaza. It took a couple of tries, but she finally made some acquaintances, but only on Saturday and only at the Plaza and never were they invited to our home, but it was a start.

 

Years later, she is exactly like me in that she will accept anyone for who they are. All are OK, any color or social strata, unless they prove themselves to be assholes. LOL, overseas, she will even talk directly to monks and even hand things to them (if they say it is OK) -- something that would NEVER happen in a wat here! She says, "the rules are different outside of Thailand and I must adapt." Her words, but my teaching, or rather, de-conditioning of her previous teaching.

 

BTW, to the Issan folks credit, I noticed only a little of the reverse with Mrs Tiger at the Plaza, even tho' it was obvious that she was Chinese and from Central Thailand. But they paid no attention to me (polite, but only spoke when spoken to), for whatever reason.

 

But Zorro, I do disagree with the fact that you think farangs are at the bottom of the social ladder (but also true that the TRT government is following the worldwide trend of incresed xenophibia to maintain their power). Far from it, at least with my experience living and working with the middle and upper middle social strata (I admit that my experience with the lower classes is limited to BGs in their bars and poor folks have a different mindset). And that is where the conflict comes in. When scumbag farangs come to LoS and behave poorly, the Thais just do not know how to pidgeonhole them -- they do not fit where they think they should.

 

Perhaps, this is why there seems to be a lowering of the status of all farangs in LoS now, as these low end travellers (not backpackers, but rude/crude/socially unacceptable individuals) are now all over the place in the Kingdom.

 

Cheers,

SD

[..]

rickfarang said:

? Non-Thais cannot own controlling interest in a Thai corporation.

Sure they can. Have you heard of the Treaty of Amity and Economic Relations Between the Kingdom of Thailand and the United States of America? Look here if you are unfamiliar with this.

 

rickfarang said:

? Mpm-Thais cannot have a checking account.

Sure you can. You just need a work permit. Just as with credit cards. Fair enough. I have been an expat long enough to have seem some folks run up debts or write a bunch of checks and then do a runner. This is a small amount of security for the bank and local companies who may get the bad checks. Pretty common around Asia, anyway.

 

Cheers,

SD

[Guest]

It is very hard for foreigners to gain Thai citizenship or to own land or to take a leading role in Thai society. The success of the TRT is further testament to the xenophobic attitude of many Thais which is reinforced in the political dialog and daily lives of the average Thai. There is a rigid class structure in Thailand and the outsider or non Thai is at the very bottomof this structure.

 

The average Thai probably doesn't even recognise what most of us westerners perceive as racism as the average Thai sees things the way they have been educated and the way their society operates and that is inherently rascist.

This is true. Even educated Thais, who have been taught about racism in Western cultures, don't recognize it in their own.

 

Most of us from the West acknowledge that racism exists in our own cultures. We might argue about degree, etc., but I don't know any educated Americans or Europeons who claim that racism is totally absent in their culture. And most educated Americans, if presented with a clear case of racism, will admit that this exactly what it is. Since this can get really fuzzy around the edges, let me give you clear example of what I think most people would consider blantant racism:

 

Imagine, for example, that an Asian family (let's make them Thais) visits Yosemite National Park. The white Park Ranger charges the car in front of them, which is full of white Americans, US$15 to enter the park. But when the car with the Thai family pulls up next, he charges them US$30. The Thais object and ask why they have to pay more. The white American Park Ranger points to their skin, and says it is because their skin is yellow. It doesn't matter if they have green cards (and therefore pay taxes) or are US citizens, they still have to pay more because they are Asians.

 

Most Americans would call this blantant racism. Maybe a few rednecks would disagree, but I don't know a single educated American that wouldn't call it racism. If you caught it on film, it would make the news and Park Ranger would be lucky if he just lost his job (and wasn't prosecuted).

 

In Thailand, if you reverse the races, it's business as usual. Virtually every educated Thai I know sees nothing wrong with this at all. That is the fundamental difference.

 

Most affluent international cities are very mixed. The San Francisco Bay Area is the classic example. It is supposed to have more PhDs per capita than anywhere else on the planet. Housing prices are high, last I heard San Francisco was less than 50% white, and Silicon Valley to the south is famous as a high-tech center. Many of its most successful business-people are from India and China.

 

Now compare that to Thailand's biggest city and center, Bangkok. Out of a city with an estimated population of 11 million (when migrants from Issan who aren't offcially registered in Bangkok are counted), there is now a record high number of Foreigners with work permits ? a bit less than 80,000. Most of them are Japanese and the second largest group is Chinese. (CBRE did a report on this in connection with demand for condominiums.) Farangs probably account for half, which is about four-tenths of a percent of the population of Bangkok. And most educated Thais I know think their are already far too many Farangs living and working here.

 

Now compare that to Shanghai. The self-professed goal of Shanghai is to have a workforce that is at least 25 % foreign soon. They recognize the value that comes with bringing in workers with skills that are hard to find locally.

 

This is a real problem for Thailand. To grow and prosper it needs to allow in workers with skills that are hard to source locally. This is true everywhere and there is tension about it everywhere, but it is more acute in Bangkok than, say, San Francisco or Shanghai. Most Thais, particularly educated Thais, that I know feel it is unfair if they have to compete with foreigners. Thailand's Alien Business Law actually states that certain businesses are restricted to Thais because they are not yet ready to compete with foreigners. The first Alien Business Law was enacted in the early 70s - over 30 years ago - and their is no sign that it will go away soon or be liberalized, even as it's more properous neighbours open up more and become more affluent as a result.

 

TRT fueled the flames by using blantant appeals to xenophobia to get elected. It's as if Pat Buchanan or Paulene Hansen (the nut from Australia - can't remember her name) actually got elected President or PM.

 

This is going to hold Thailand back.

[Guest]

Treaty of Amity and Economic Relations Between the Kingdom of Thailand and the United States of America? Look here if you are unfamiliar with this

Yes, but the Ministry of Commerce stopped processing Amity Treaty applications. If you contend otherwise, give me the full name of a company that has obtained Amity Treaty status in the last month and I will look it up on the BOL (pay) website. Beause the the website lists the nationality of the shareholders and its activities, you can easily determine if a US owned company has been granted permission under the Amity Treaty to engage in business activities restricted under the Alien Busines Law and therefore has Amity Treaty status (or was otherwise granted an exemption from the Alien Business Law).

 

Thailand is going backward in this area. I hope it is just temporary because of the sale of Shin, but I fear the worst.

Sure you can. You just need a work permit. Just as with credit cards. Fair enough. I have been an expat long enough to have seem some folks run up debts or write a bunch of checks and then do a runner. This is a small amount of security for the bank and local companies who may get the bad checks.

I work in a bank, and locally owned companies are the biggest credit risk.

 

But on the question of fairness, is it fair that a permanent resident - someone who has the right to reside here forever - has to separately apply for a work permit? Some Farangs with permanent residency - acheived by living here for years, paying taxes and passing a test with 100 questions in Thai - have been denied work permits. In the US, if you have the right to live there, you not only have the right to work there, but you are expected to work so you are not a burden on the state. Here, the rules make absolutely no sense - at least from a sound policy basis.

[..]

Well, I dunno about the Thai side, at dinner with folks from the USCS section of the US Embassy 10 days ago I was told that the Treaty is still status quo, even tho' it is supposed to go away sometime per some WTO agreement. They should know, and Thailand could hardly unilaterally void the treaty without a big stink.

 

I do agree that the work permit situation is shitty. But I think it a stretch that this ancient method is anything but government run amok versus a concerted racist effort. And the Thai work permit methodology (except the PerRes fiasco) is not unique. Tho' other regional countries have gotten better while Thailand has stayed the same.