those wicked americans

[chuckwoww]

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wrong, running 4 times per week and lifting iron. getting prepared! (the results are small but its all in a good cause!)

 

 

Just kidding Phil. We know you want to do your bit for the resistance. How about we bury a few things in your back garden? Don't worry. When they start running electricity through your balls you can always say you didn't know the stuff was there.

[Flashermac]

Going back to the post office???

 

 

[Steve]

What is obvious is the invasion was wrong. From the planning, onward. What isn't clear are the reasons. Its possible but no one can say with certainty it was to get Iraqi oil as its main purpose. It could very well just have been personal as Hussein tried to assassinate Bush's father. Or possible a combination of reasons. Some of us have this conspiracy theory idea that is written as metaphysical certitude. Any one or a combination of reasons may be why we are there. That said, America and other countries are complicit.

The way the prisoners were treated were wrong but its not standard operating procedure for the military. Its an aberration. A wrong one but 99% of soldiers and americans didn't know about so the post about you only have to see the jails in Cuba to know what american troops think of Iraqis is using the same hyperbolic statements that the same accuse the media who support the war or the press sect'y of the president uses.

I appreciate the anger about the injustices, but lets show a bit of balance despite the anger. Being intellectually dishonest about the facts when you believe you're right is just as bad as the opposition who twist words and actions to keep the war going.

Just like the government uses the good things that soldiers and the military are doing over there to keep the war going. And there is good. The military hospitals treat the suicide bombers with the same care and concern they do wounded soldiers. An excellent documentary talks about that. It takes a lot of mental strength to mend and heal someone who just killed your fellow soldiers. That is the standard of the military. In good wars and bad. Were europeans and Brits worried about American troops mistreating citizens when America was asked to go into Bosnia?

Just a guess, not fact, but there is a cultural difference in my humble opinion that would not make westerners act in that manner. Meaning indiscriminately blowing each other up no matter what side you're on. I am no expert on the IRA but as far as I know and I am open to correction, but they didn't target everyone in northern Ireland.

The fact is that a lot of us on this forum who don't like the war also do not want to acknowledge any good behavior that happens in Iraq. Some will use actions that occur in all wars as proof that the war and those that wage it are evil. Its dishonest. The war is wrong under its own merits if its wrong. Good soldiers fight in wrong wars all the time. There were many thousands of good german soldiers who fought for a wrong cause in WW2. Hard to swallow but its the fact. Just as how they were good southerners who fought fairly and with valor for the wrong cause in our civil war and you'd be loathe to hear a black american even admit that.

No one likes the top military power in any ERA. The British empire was hated in its heyday. Hated by all other powers. Rightly or justly. Other powers wished for its demise but also hoped they would replace it. We 'enjoy' the same fate. It comes with the territory. What continues to boggle me is in that dislike at best, hatred at worst, is that some are willing to whitewash the actions of the old USSR, past and present day China, in deference to their displeasure about America.

 

The war in Iraq will end with this administration. Even if the same party wins the white house. There simply is no more public support for it. We've all grown weary, even those that support the president. The call for war crimes etc. is interesting. Where was that cry when Saddam was in power? There are a long list of people that should be brought in if Bush and Blair have. And to evoke China and Russia as the ones who have 'stood up' as if their intentions are noble is particularly galling. The same China and Russia who oppose any UN Security voting to try and do any good such as stopping genocides, stopping the nut in N. Korea, etc.? That China and Russia? Are those that hate the war (justfiably hating it) so consumed they are willing to make China and Russia seem like good guys on a forum?

If you're honest, those that want Bush brought in for war crimes, then bring in a laundry list of the worlds leaders with him for other things they have done and EVERY leader that sent troops or supplies. EVERY one. Why weren't they mentioned with Bush or Blair? Are you judging complicity on degree of involvement?

We've hashed this out before. There are some who hate America no matter what, even before the war. The war gave some the perfect excuse to voice it. Some have posted on here about Clinton being better than Bush and were still hating America then. Some posted about Carter and disliked America back then. Its the 'Manchester United' or 'NY Yankees' syndrome. We like the underdog and don't like the biggest on the block, no matter what. At least be honest about it.

 

I've sat in bars in Thailand watching football, well before Bush was in the white house and most thinking I was some Brit on holiday and I would hear all the 'bloody yanks' comments when anything american was on the T.V. BGs would ask me why Germans, British, Japanese, French, what have you 'no like america'. And this was in the '90s. I have numerous friends from various countries and the beautiful thing about LOS and traveling is you get to know people on an individual basis and accept them as friends despite your prejudices toward their culture or nationality. You make the exception. Its one of the beautiful things about this forum. The same ones we argue with on here, if we were to meet up, we'd have a beer and chat. I know because its happened to me. I have met up with someone who I argued incessantly with on here and are friends. (of course there are one or two that it doesn't matter, we'll never share a beer...lol).

 

Anyway, good debate and its my hope that some of us are open or sympathetic to alternate views and that the world is usually not black and white and this could be one thing that operates in that gray area.

[cavanami]

My brother-in-law travels regularly to Europe and he hears the USA bashing all the time.

 

His reply..."...the USA doesn't like you all that much either..."!

 

Shuts them right up!!!

[chuckwoww]

'there is a cultural difference' Indeed there is CS. There is also something that I can only describe as an 'attitude'...you see it on this board...they're just a bunch of ragheads. It was the same in Vietnam with the 'gooks'. Maybe it's just normal human behaviour....obviously we must believe we are morally superior to the enemy. But isn't that what muslim fundamentalists say too?

[chuck6660]

Some good points made by Chocolate Steve.

 

I have sensed many people let their anti-american feelings override their reasoning capability.

 

An example is the Korean reaction to the Taliban kidnapping 23 Korean church members. The korean church group traveled to Afghanistan against their own governments advice, and were kidnapped, not because they were korean but because they were an easy target. The Taliban were looking for hostages to barter with, in obtaining the release of a militia leader, jailed by the Afghan government.

Are the Korean student groups protesting against the Taliban or Pakistan governments? No they are protesting outside the US Embassy. The "humanitarian" Taliban have released two female hostages as a "good will" geature to the Korean people...I guess they feel that makes up for the two male hostages they executed and dumped on the roadside.

 

The Koreans do not understand why most western governments refuse to negotiate with kidnappers.

 

Another example is the disparity in world outrage toward the treatment of prisoners in Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib, versus the Taliban penchant for beheading non-combatant hostages on camera.

[Flashermac]

Nothing new. The world always holds the US to a higher standard, which is as it should be. Nevertheless, it is represents a form of looking down on "less developed" nations - sort of like saying, "Well ... what do you expect."

 

 

 

 

[trooper]

The rest of the civilized world is just critizising the way the most powerful country is leading the world. The US has taken a role of the world police and sure as hell must carry the resposibility that comes along with it.

[Guest lazyphil]

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:thumbup:

 

[chuckwoww]

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:thumbup:

 

 

Me? That's an easy one to answer. If it ever gets to be a trial, which of course it never will, the other world leaders will just say they were bribed and threatened to take part.