Flashermac Posted May 6, 2008 Report Share Posted May 6, 2008 << If only Israel had gone 3% further on the land swap isue, this conflict would now be history. >> And if only Arafat had been willing to compromise on Jerusalem, to which Islam's claim is quite frankly ... bizarre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robaus Posted May 6, 2008 Report Share Posted May 6, 2008 Flashermac, >>And if only Arafat had been willing to compromise on Jerusalem ...Agreed. At Camp David, Barak and Arafat should both been nudged a bit closer by Clinton to clinch the deal. I think they would have made it too in follow up talks. But then a few weeks later in September 2000 that notorious war criminal Ariel Sharon took a leisurely stroll on Temple Mount (with an escort of over 1,000 Israeli police officers - surely he wasn't expecting trouble?) deliberately igniting another intifada, won the next election on a wave of reactionary Israeli nationalism, refused to talk to Arafat, and the rest is a bloody history. How different it might have been. >>Jerusalem, to which Islam's claim is quite frankly ... bizarre. ... I'm an atheist. I don't give a hoot about religion. I think they're all loonies. But if it's in the mind of a particular religious fanatic, then it's real and dangerous. I would hazard a guess that any such claim is just as bizarre as a New York or Golders Green born Jew's claim, as he waves an Uzi and a We_are_the_Chosen_People's bible, in an olive grove that he is busy confiscating from a Palestinian whose family has farmed it for centuries. ry, >>I said at the very first that there will never be an end to the attacks on Israel so long as she exists. ... says you. Your "humble opinion only" I presume. It need not be that way. Fortunately, there are more pragmatic diplomats and people of goodwill in this world. Even set_in_concrete "the Golan Heights are an integral part of Israel" just last week was mooted as now negotiable for a peace agreement with Syria... wonderful! Jaw jaw is better than war war. >>You're cracking me up here! ... If the conflict escalates because of your proposed Israeli intransigence and UDI boundaries, then I think there's much much worse to come than 9/11. It's a dangerous game of brinkmanship. I'm amazed that terrorists haven't yet moved the front line to Israel's chief sponsor USA, as the IRA did to mainland Britain. There are many possible crowded targets such as shopping malls, sporting events, campuses.... let alone a dirty bomb smuggled in a shipping container to the heart of NYC. And on a global scale there are the numerous well known venues where Israeli backpackers congregate.. Khao San Road and Koh Phangan for starters. US voters may then turn around and say what the fuck are we doing protecting a repressive country half way around the world, risking millions of our own citizens' lives, when the Israelis themselves won't even give peace a chance by simply swapping 3% of land that they illegally took in 1967 and a face saving deal over a pile of rocks in Jerusalem. I hope that wiser heads than yours prevail, ry, that use diplomacy to negotiate some sort of win win peace solutuon similar to the one I outlined above, than risk Armageddon as Hillary nukes Iran, and Pakistan or a Lord of War slips a dirty bomb to terrorists with which to retaliate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogueyam Posted May 6, 2008 Report Share Posted May 6, 2008 Pretty rare (couple of times a year)...the rock throwing kids get killed on a weekly basis. Your numbers are way, way off on both sides, SD. Not even close. Makes me wonder. Here's some relevant recent data: April 17 Haaretz reported, "17 rockets were fired at the western Negev" near Ashkelon.[1] April 18 Haaretz reported, "Sixteen Qassam rockets were fired at Israel." One rocket hit power lines and another hit "a residential block" in Sderot.[1] April 21 Israel Today reported that Palestinian forces operating out of the Gaza Strip on Monday fired at least nine rockets and mortar shells at communities in southern Israel, wounding a four-year-old Israeli boy (light injuries from a piece of shrapnel) and damaging a number of homes.[2] April 22 Israel Today reported that at least one missile fired from northern Gaza hit the southern industrial zone of the Israeli coastal city of Ashkelon.[2] April 29, 2008 More than 15 Qassam rockets and 20 mortar shells were fired on Israel throughout the day, with two of the Qassam rockets and eight of the mortar shells landing within and around western Negev towns. [3] April 30, 2008 At least two rockets fired by Gaza-based Palestinian forces slammed into the southern Israel town of Sderot while local residents were attending a Holocaust memorial ceremony on Wednesday evening..[2] May 1, 2008 Gaza terrorists fired at least 10 rockets at Sderot and neighboring communities. One rocket landed next to an Israeli high school, sending a number of students into severe shock.[2] [1]: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/976381.html [2]: http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=15782 [3]: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3537592,00.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogueyam Posted May 6, 2008 Report Share Posted May 6, 2008 And when it does happen the rocket generally takes out one house; the IDF then bulldozes 100s of innocent civilian's homes and puts the whole place on lockdown so people cannot work or shop. Not even the most psychotic leftist organizations make this claim, SD. Try to find a link for this nonsense and you will see for yourself. Check the ISM or anywhere. I've never even heard the Islamists go this far! You are completely unmoored from reality on this. And they wonder why the Palestinians are pissed off and the cycle starts again. Once again, lack of proportionate response on the Israelis part is my issue here. If they had restraint, the the non-radical Pales would not get pissed off and would assist in getting rid of the radicals. It is not Israeli actions but rather whatever emotions which cause you to so preposterously distort them that are the root of the conflict. Ask yourself something, SD: What is it that you and the suicide bombers have in common? Therein lies the answer to your frustration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.. Posted May 6, 2008 Report Share Posted May 6, 2008 Dude, does your "reality" and the real world have nothing in common? I thought not. Have you ever even spoken to an Israeli, let alone a Palestinian? Have you ever been to Israel? I have -- I lived in Rehovot (S of Tel Aviv) for a time. As Mark Twain taught me: "Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig." Any more discussion is pointless until you find some tenuous grip on reality RY. And I know that'll never happen, so...buh bye! Cheers, SD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogueyam Posted May 6, 2008 Report Share Posted May 6, 2008 Trapped like a rat, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangkoktraveler Posted May 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 rogueyam what country are you a citizen of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flashermac Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 << I would hazard a guess that any such claim is just as bizarre as a New York or Golders Green born Jew's claim, as he waves an Uzi and a We_are_the_Chosen_People' s bible, in an olive grove that he is busy confiscating from a Palestinian whose family has farmed it for centuries. >> "Glorified be He (God) who took his servant (Muhammad) for a journey by night from al-Masjid al-Haram (in Mecca) to al-Masjid al-Aqsa (in Jerusalem), whose precincts we have blessed...". (Qur'an 17:1) See! Allah took Muhammad on a Magical Mystery Tour through the air to visit Jerusalem one night. So now you understand why the historic Jewish capital clearly belongs to the Muslims and not the Jews who built it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robaus Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 It serves the Jewish absentee landlords right for buggering off in the diaspora for 2000 years. They should have clearly stipulated in the tenancy agreement - no helipads or magic carpet ports to be built on Temple Mount! Jews, Christians and Muslims lived together peacefully in Palestine for centuries until the late 19th Century and the establishment of the Zionist Movement by Theodor Herzl in 1897. I'd simply like politicians to find a way to make it happen again, at least as neighbouring countries with a lasting peace agreement. It was done in Europe and Japan after WW2. The consequences of the alternative might be disastrous for the whole world. year Jews Arabs 1800 6,700 268,000 1880 24,000 525,000 1915 87,500 590,000 1931 174,000 837,000 1947 630,000 1,310,000 2006 5,394,400 1,413,300 ... creating 4,255,120 UN registered Palestinian refugees [2006]not counting those who have migrated to other countries. Zionism wiki Demographics of Israel wiki Palestine Remembered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flashermac Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 Unfortunately, the problem is more than simply the Palestinians. Several Muslims explained to me that they could not accept Israel being in the middle of the "Islamic World". Since Muslims claim Muhammad was the last in a long line of prophets, they say Islam has a right to the Holy Land because the Jewish prophets lived there. Both sides are looney in their reasoning. You can see from the way the Arabs treat the Palestinians that they don't much care what happens to them. The Palestinians are really screwed. The Jews don't want them in their land, and the Arabs don't really want them either. By comparison, 15 million Germans and ethnic Germans were expelled from their historic homelands after WWII. So how many are still in refugee camps? How many millions of Indians and Pakistanis lost all they owned in the divison of India? Again .. how many are still in refugee camps? The Arab states want the Palestinians to remain as refugees so they will have a tool to use against Israel. Everything went wrong in 1948 when the UN agreed to divide Palestine. Israel would get 56% of the land, the Palestinians the rest. But the Arabs states would not accept this and attacked to "drive the Jews into the sea". Surprisingly, the Jews won and ended up with a much bigger Israel than they would otherwise have had. If the Arab states had accepted a small Israel in 1948, the Palestinians would not be in the fix they are now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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