Israel, aligned with US for Iran war

[Khun Prasert]

Without taking sides in this debate where everyone thinks he is 100 % right, I just wish to congratulate Israel on her 60th birthday tomorrow. Congrats !

[robaus]

>>Several Muslims explained to me that they could not accept Israel being in the middle of the "Islamic World"

... One hardly builds foreign policy on the strength of a few conversations with extremists.

 

Whereas this is a fact. At the 2002 Arab League summit in Beirut ALL Arab states agreed on a comprehensive peace with Israel. Signed treaties, normalised relations, trade, exchange of ambassadors, recognition of Israel's secure borders. The concessions they want from Israel are more or less what I proposed above: 100% of land occupied since 1967 (or swaps) returned, a deal over Palestinian refugees, and a Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem.

 

Maybe it's because these sorts of facts are never mentioned on Fox News, but I'm amazed at Americans' blind devotion to the state of Israel, whose spies such as Jonathan Pollard steal America's military secrets, whose lobbyists can make or break a politician or even a Presidential candidate (remember the dirty tricks photo of Hillary and Yasser Arafat during her NY senate campaign?), whose Israeli navy murdered 34 U.S. servicemen and wounded at least 173 in the USS Liberty incident in 1967. Next time you visit the Vietnam Wall in Washington, talk to some of your fellow American vets who survived the incident. They picket there every day. Ask them, as I did, what they think of Israel.

 

How many Israelis are fighting alongside Americans against the Taliban in Afghanistan? The United Arab Emirates and Jordan are there, but no Israelis. So much for your most loyal allies.

 

What on earth has Israel ever done for USA apart from land it in a heap of shit due to their arrogance and intransigence? Look at the role of Zionist neo cons Richard Perle and Douglas Feith, whose misinformation led to the Iraq War and over 4,000 American soldiers killed. Zionist Influence On The US War Machine. Multiple entries on the subject in wiki and Google.

 

America quite rightly condemns China for its occupation of Tibet, but turns a blind eye to Israel's far bloodier occupation of Palestinian land.

 

Your comparison with other refugee situations is a classic "red herring" fallacy. Someone gets mugged for $100 and files a complaint, another one loses $500, but is not bleating about it, therefore the first victim is wrong. Both are crimes. Are you implying that the normal reaction for ALL refugees who have their land and homes stolen ought to be "just get over it". If by some miracle Mexico had weaponry sophisticated enough to seize Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California (to which they have valid historical and cultural claims), would you tell the displaced Americans "Mai ben rai. Accept your fate"

 

>>Everything went wrong in 1948 when the UN agreed to divide Palestine.

... what right had the UN in 1948 or Britain with the Balfour Declaration of 1917 to give away Palestine without consulting the people who actually lived there?

 

There is no turning back the clock. Israel is a fait accompli which I accept and would welcome into the EU (I have a British passport too). I am simply suggesting a constructive way that Israel, with just a few small concessions, could be at peace with its neighbours, and its citizens leading normal lives. The alternative is destructive: another 60 years of playing into the arms of terrorists and rogue nations, and more bloodshed, that if escalated could drag the whole world into Armageddon.

 

[robaus]

KP,

The New York Times is not in the same pro Israeli congratulatory mood as you. After 60 Years, Arabs in Israel Are Outsiders

[robaus]

>>Surprisingly, the Jews won and ended up with a much bigger Israel than they would otherwise have had.

... it might "surprise" you to read Israeli historian Benny Morris's account of how Jewish militias raped, massacred, and ethnically cleansed Palestinians to create a much bigger Israel.

 

"According to your new findings, how many cases of Israeli rape were there in 1948?

 

"About a dozen. In Acre four soldiers raped a girl and murdered her and her father. In Jaffa, soldiers of the Kiryati Brigade raped one girl and tried to rape several more. At Hunin, which is in the Galilee, two girls were raped and then murdered. There were one or two cases of rape at Tantura, south of Haifa. There was one case of rape at Qula, in the center of the country. At the village of Abu Shusha, near Kibbutz Gezer [in the Ramle area] there were four female prisoners, one of whom was raped a number of times. And there were other cases. Usually more than one soldier was involved. Usually there were one or two Palestinian girls. In a large proportion of the cases the event ended with murder. Because neither the victims nor the rapists liked to report these events, we have to assume that the dozen cases of rape that were reported, which I found, are not the whole story. They are just the tip of the iceberg."

 

According to your findings, how many acts of Israeli massacre were perpetrated in 1948?

 

"Twenty-four. In some cases four or five people were executed, in others the numbers were 70, 80, 100. There was also a great deal of arbitrary killing. Two old men are spotted walking in a field - they are shot. A woman is found in an abandoned village - she is shot. There are cases such as the village of Dawayima [in the Hebron region], in which a column entered the village with all guns blazing and killed anything that moved.

 

"The worst cases were Saliha (70-80 killed), Deir Yassin (100-110), Lod (250), Dawayima (hundreds) and perhaps Abu Shusha (70). There is no unequivocal proof of a large-scale massacre at Tantura, but war crimes were perpetrated there. At Jaffa there was a massacre about which nothing had been known until now. The same at Arab al Muwassi, in the north. About half of the acts of massacre were part of Operation Hiram [in the north, in October 1948]: at Safsaf, Saliha, Jish, Eilaboun, Arab al Muwasi, Deir al Asad, Majdal Krum, Sasa. In Operation Hiram there was a unusually high concentration of executions of people against a wall or next to a well in an orderly fashion.

 

"That can't be chance. It's a pattern. Apparently, various officers who took part in the operation understood that the expulsion order they received permitted them to do these deeds in order to encourage the population to take to the roads. The fact is that no one was punished for these acts of murder. Ben-Gurion silenced the matter. He covered up for the officers who did the massacres."

 

What you are telling me here, as though by the way, is that in Operation Hiram there was a comprehensive and explicit expulsion order. Is that right?

 

"Yes. One of the revelations in the book is that on October 31, 1948, the commander of the Northern Front, Moshe Carmel, issued an order in writing to his units to expedite the removal of the Arab population. Carmel took this action immediately after a visit by Ben-Gurion to the Northern Command in Nazareth. There is no doubt in my mind that this order originated with Ben-Gurion. Just as the expulsion order for the city of Lod, which was signed by Yitzhak Rabin, was issued immediately after Ben-Gurion visited the headquarters of Operation Dani [July 1948]."

 

Deir Yassin Remembered

 

The UK Independent newspaper has an interesting article on Israel's need for a peace agreement too if the Jewish state is to survive. Israel: From independence to intifada

 

 

 

[Flashermac]

<< ... what right had the UN in 1948 or Britain with the Balfour Declaration of 1917 to give away Palestine without consulting the people who actually lived there? >>

 

As much right as the WWII Allies had to give away 1/4 of Germany ... or half of Poland ... or agree to the explusion of millions of ethnic Germans from the countries they had lived in for centuries. Also, as much as Britain had to divide India, with an arbitrary border that separated farm houses from their fields etc and caused millions to lose their homes.

 

In other words ... none whatsover except the overwhelming power to do so.

 

 

<< How many Israelis are fighting alongside Americans against the Taliban in Afghanistan? The United Arab Emirates and Jordan are there, but no Israelis. So much for your most loyal allies. >>

 

 

Can you imagine the reaction in the Arab world if Israeli troops enetered Afganistan?

 

 

 

<< Next time you visit the Vietnam Wall in Washington, talk to some of your fellow American vets who survived the incident. They picket there every day. Ask them, as I did, what they think of Israel. >>

 

I know full well about the USS Liberty. It was Lyndon Johnson's call to do nothing.

 

 

 

[robaus]

>>In other words ... none whatsover except the overwhelming power to do so.

 

....Might is not necessarily right. According to your logic, if terrorists started to detonate one dirty nuclear bomb per week in diffferent American cities in order to force the US to put pressure on Israel, that would be perfectly acceptable because "They had the overwhelmng power to do so!" Bollocks.

 

>>Can you imagine the reaction in the Arab world if Israeli troops entered Afganistan?

... If Israel stands by its staunchest ally, as it should do, so what?

I am a 100% supporter of the US, UK, Aussie and other allies' presence in Afghanistan [but not in Iraq - that is a total cockup - no WMD. Saddam was a monster that a crack Delta, SAS team, or a disgruntled Iraqi suicide bomber could have taken out].

 

Whereas in Afghanistan the Taleban refused to surrender Bin Liner for the 9/11 atrocity, so up to them to bear the consequences. Bin Liner himself claims that one of his reasons for 9/11 was US support for Israel. Therefore the very least Israel could do is send some troops to fight them, instead of relying on the rest of the world to do the work for them. What are you saying? Sensitive new age Israelis coyly concerned about their image in the Arab world - that's the funniest thing I've heard all week.

 

I thought the T shirts you see in Tel Aviv souvenir shops were meant as a tongue in cheek joke "America, we're right behind you" The designer should have added "... yeah, about 2000kms behind you."

 

[Flashermac]

<< ....Might is not necessarily right. According to your logic, if terrorists started to detonate one dirty nuclear bomb per week in diffferent American cities in order to force the US to put pressure on Israel, that would be perfectly acceptable because "They had the overwhelmng power to do so!" Bollocks. >>

 

It's not my logic. It's reality. The post-WWII powers did it - and got away with it. No one was in a position to challenge them. The victims were told to shut up and accept it, and they mostly have ... except for the Palestinians. Ethnic cleansing is extremely nasty, but is effective. Once the population has been completely changed, how do you undo it?

 

Terrorists setting off bombs is hardly the same as what the big powers did, since the terrorists are not free from retaliation. Taliban found that out when it supported al Qaeda.

 

p.s. Invading Iraq was so obviously uncalled for that only an idiot like GWB would have done it. Once he is out of office, he should be forced to live in Baghdad the rest of his life!

 

 

 

[Old Hippie]

The problem as I understand it is basically, if the Israeli's start bombing Muslims in Afghanistan, the other Muslim nations might not side with us, or could also turn on us.

[Flashermac]

There are numerous chapters in the Qu'ran that say the Jews are the Muslim's enemies. Muhammad said so! When people are taught that from childhood, does anyone expect them not to believe it?

 

The last thing the west needs if for Israeli troops to enter Muslim countries and attack Muslims.

 

p.s. There used to be large Jewish communities in many Arab nations. I knew a Jewish doctor in SFO who was from Baghdad. But when Israel came into existence, the Jewish communities in Arab countries were almost completely expelled. The Arabs want the Palestinians to be allowed to return to their lost homes. But would the Arabs allow Jews to return and occupy what they had to leave behind? In a pig's arse ...

 

 

 

 

[Faustian]

Then there's the Talmud, the most 'holy' of Jewish books, which states...

 

Sanhedrin 58b. If a heathen (gentile) hits a Jew, the gentile must be killed.

 

Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals.

 

Abodah Zarah 36b. Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.

 

Abodah Zarah 22a-22b . Gentiles prefer sex with cows.

 

There's a lot more....like it's ok to steal from non-jews, lie to non-jews, kill non-jews...

 

Go nuts...http://www.revisionisthistory.org/talmudtruth.html