President-elect promised change, picking insiders

[Hugh_Hoy]

Okay Dave...I did a bit more reading and it appears that without the "legacy" money, but including benefits, UAW workers for the Big 3 seem to be making up to about $55/hour. I assume that most of those benefits are tax-free which makes the dollars about $28 worth even more, no?

 

HH

[itsmedave]

The point is that in actual spending money on a paycheck, workers from GM make almost exactly what the workers for Toyota make...actually a little less.

 

The only difference is the cost of benefits...mainly health care (which is not GM's fault, but the governments for not doing anything to make it more affordable) and retirement benefits. Since American car companies have had factories in the States for about 40 years longer the Japanese have, it would be impossible for them not to have hundreds of thousands more retiree's than the foreign automakers.

 

So, what do you do? Tell all the 70 year olds who worked their whole lives and were promised a pension and health care that they are no longer useful and take away what they earned? Avoid giving health care because the insurance companies make it too expensive to afford?

 

Because the actual wages are the same.

 

This business of adding health care costs as part of your wages...companies don't say, "we're going to pay you $50k a year" and include health care costs and pension plans in that figure. Do you calculate what you make with those additions? I wouldn't even know how to do that. In fact, you could go the other way, because these workers probably have to pay some of the health care themselves. (I pay $200 a month in addition to what my company contributes) How about we deduct what they have to pay from their wages instead. And contrary to what you said, I would imagine a car company gets tax breaks for employing people and paying for some health care...is that deducted from the wages you say the workers are paid?

 

Or, to stop making this more complicated than it needs to be...if you are going to complain about what the workers are paid...how about just talking about what they are actually paid.

 

The underlying point is that American workers are paid an hourly wage that is consistant with the industry standard. Any additional amounts they pay are due to the government's inability to regulate the health care industry (thank you George W) and the very fact that they have been providing jobs for so many decades.

[Bangkoktraveler]

The point is that in actual spending money on a paycheck, workers from GM make almost exactly what the workers for Toyota make...actually a little less.

 

The only difference is the cost of benefits...mainly health care (which is not GM's fault, but the governments for not doing anything to make it more affordable) and retirement benefits. Since American car companies have had factories in the States for about 40 years longer the Japanese have, it would be impossible for them not to have hundreds of thousands more retiree's than the foreign automakers.

 

So, what do you do? Tell all the 70 year olds who worked their whole lives and were promised a pension and health care that they are no longer useful and take away what they earned? Avoid giving health care because the insurance companies make it too expensive to afford?

 

Because the actual wages are the same.

 

This business of adding health care costs as part of your wages...companies don't say, "we're going to pay you $50k a year" and include health care costs and pension plans in that figure. Do you calculate what you make with those additions? I wouldn't even know how to do that. In fact, you could go the other way, because these workers probably have to pay some of the health care themselves. (I pay $200 a month in addition to what my company contributes) How about we deduct what they have to pay from their wages instead. And contrary to what you said, I would imagine a car company gets tax breaks for employing people and paying for some health care...is that deducted from the wages you say the workers are paid?

 

Or, to stop making this more complicated than it needs to be...if you are going to complain about what the workers are paid...how about just talking about what they are actually paid.

 

The underlying point is that American workers are paid an hourly wage that is consistant with the industry standard. Any additional amounts they pay are due to the government's inability to regulate the health care industry (thank you George W) and the very fact that they have been providing jobs for so many decades.

 

 

 

Better yet, why not blame the Big 3 for the inflated price we have had to pay for gas, and of course it is the Big 3's fault that the dollar dropped in value. The Big 3 should have seen this coming, especially after GWB got elected in 2000.

 

[..]

Bravo Dave. You get it. Why do 90% of our countrymen not? Why do they insist upon fucking themselves? Any salary package a white collar guy has is because of the unions fighting for it. As I have said, many times: why do people think that collective bargaining is the epitome of capitalism (e.e., WalMart getting low prices from suppliers through their volume), while it is 100% evil if employees do the same thing?

 

The mind boggles.

 

Cheers,

SD

[USVirgin]

Any salary package a white collar guy has is because of the unions fighting for it.

 

That is SO true. :thumbup:

[Bangkoktraveler]

Good point SD.

 

Every working person in the USA wants the benefits and salary the auto worker has, but because of some psychological quirk, they claim what they really want is wrong, it is bad.

 

It is very much like what some say about health care in the USA, almost everybody wants heath care but some little psychological quirk tells them it is wrong. Along with this is that beleif that giving Iraqis health care is okay, but that same psychologicalquirk still says it is wrong for us. Doesn't make sense does it?

[USVirgin]

Whether it's a non-union company competing for talent with a unionized company, or a unionized company establishing bennies for their white collar employees, the union package is the benchmark.

[..]

Exactly.

 

Cheers,

SD

[Bangkoktraveler]

Whether it's a non-union company competing for talent with a unionized company, or a unionized company establishing bennies for their white collar employees, the union package is the benchmark.

 

 

Absolutely!

 

 

 

 

 

I think every one agrees with that except rogie. But being rogie was once a Democrat, there is still hope for him. Shit, I will even say a prayer for him and ask god if she will bless his soul. No hard feelings in my body.

[Old Hippie]

SD,

 

Let me be clear, I see this for what it is, union busting, getting out of long promised compensation. Retirement, and retirement medical etc, are nothing more than deferred compensation, the workers took less than to have something later. I believe it was under the Ragan administration and the "Resse" or "Reci" (sp?) act where in employers could skip contributions to pension plans if market growth covered the amount and other bullshit. This act was allowed to defy collective bargaining.

 

All that said, here is the final/real deal, similar to what I/we in the airline industry specifically United Airlines faced...the company orchestrated a bankruptcy, under which it demanded many "unreasonable" things. They exploited this act because they had the power of a bigger threat...abrogating our contracts, ending the unions, and making us "at will employees" with NO UNION REPRESENTATION OR PROTECTION!

 

O.k. it was all bullshit, but it works. REfuse to take the shit deal they offer...and you will get worse later on...same now for the Auto workers. Yes, this is maybe bullshit, failures on the part of management to run the company properly etc...but the bottom line is, these workers are going to have to give something if they want to keep something...sad is, NO company will ever negotiate concessions if they include a "snap back" should the company return to profitability. It is as if they are admitting they know it is all bullshit, and they know it is a grab.

 

As one Branniff rep put it long ago, "...80% of something is better than 100% of nothing..."