ChristianTroy Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 One very interesting point is that whenever and wherever you discuss the Bush topic, people will bring up Hitler! nuff said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playtheblues Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 (promise this intervention only from blues) "it may be wrong but the USA tries!!!" This summarizes and is the very essence of Americas role as the true "Faustian" nation. Forgive me for being literary again, but the reason Faust's soul is saved is - apart from the eternal female role (of course) - that he always actively strived. "Wer immer strebend sich bemueht, den können wir erlösen" (it means just what I said above) Satan/Mefistoteles is too low spirited to understand that in the higher order of things, or seen from a heavenly perspective, contradictions and sometimes seemingly bad choice of actions can be forgiven, as long as they are the consequenses of an active life, aiming towards creating something better than the present. In America, this activism takes the form of letting free productive forces in the country create their own dynamics, almost unparallelled in the world, making the nation one of the leaders in business, science (Nobel Prizes!), arts, entertainment etc, mainly without governmental intervention and indeed rather as a result of non-intervention . Now, as a foreign policy receipt this is dangerous stuff and cannot be used as a pretext for all sort of political activism (help me god, not!) . I think, however, that America's intervention in foreign affairs since the presidencies of Roosevelt (Th) and Wilson, up to Clinton (Bosnia, Kosovo, which the left mostly supported btw) were many times genuine efforts to solve problems, mostly in the Th. Roosevelt sense out of compelling national interest, but also in the form of Wilsonian Messianism - the latter being scandalously misused by Bush. Said so much, I think many Americans here would agree that active intervention in world affairs was not and is not the American default position. Isolationism lies closer to American instincts. Up to World War I the American foreign policy credo was to keep away from European and other affairs which did not threaten America, but instead try to contribute to a better world order by building a nation to be a model for other countries (even Bush was rather isolationist up to 9/11). Thus, I wouldn't call America as an essentially imperialistic world power. The Bush administration's lack of energy policy, though, makes it support all kinds of ME dictatotship - thus indirectly supporting all oil producing "bad"countries, including, paradoxically, Iran! I don't mean to bagatellize, America's many ugly misteps abroad and I have a distinct scepticism regarding "the quiet American" style of misdirected wilsonianism. And real ugly were some Latin American things, but also try to remember that they took place close to home and were considered as sort of proxy wars in the cold war context, right or wrong (.. ok, wrong then). "A good person understands a great man" (Thomas Mann about Charlotte's final understanding also of Goethe's contradictory and often bad sides in "Lotte in Weimar"; here the lady pops up again). "A good person understands a great nation (my version; again, what the hell am I doing posting this kind of stuff on on a Bangkok sex site...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckwoww Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 I like America and Americans but the invasion of Iraq really made me think. It was either incredibly arrogant or incredibly naive. Or both. I can't decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Hippie Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 It was stupid arrogance. The asshole went in despite all best advice NOT to, including from his dad. Bringing up Bush leads to the mention of Hitler...well, same church, different pew...GW isn't that bad (yet) but his mind set may well be the same. And as I said before, many see the American Neo con/Neo Nationalist movement being similar in fervor and mind set to that of Nazi Germany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Hippie Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Playtheblues, What the hell are you talking about? I went to public school in San Francisco, please speak in English (or Spanish ) so I can get an idea/clue as to what you are on about. Literature to us was filling out a bail request application. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristianTroy Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 It was either incredibly arrogant or incredibly naive. Or both. I can't decide. Very diplomatic reply! Allow me to be less diplomatic! The original reason was to disarm the Iraq! - when there was nothing to find they invented a new reason! Liberating Iraq from the dictatorship of Saddam - we've all seen GWB in front of a banner "mission accomplished" Now the reason is to fight terrorism for world peace - When Saddam was gone terrorists entered the country WITH ammunation BOTTOMLINE: in the Iraq are now more weapons than before, more weapons killing american people than Saddam could have ever achieved! How can bush sleep at night after telling so many lies and beeing responsible for so many deaths? Probably it is right what the conspiracy people say, bush is just a puppet controlled by powerful people! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckwoww Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 What's interesting is that they don't even talk about 'winning' anymore. They've learned that the use of force has it's limits. I think this will ultimately turn out to be a sobering experience for America. If the neo-con nuts don't blow us all up first... http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/intervention/2006/1011neocon.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playtheblues Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 OH, as I said "I am in the wrong place", just ignore. You are absolutely right, wrong langugage, wrong ideas. Couldn't figure out what to do a Friday evening in Bangkok so I was bored, easy to understand, right? Will not repeat, new promise. If i promise to stop posting, can you do me a favour: not to bagatellize Hitler's crimes by comparing him to an accidental red-neck based Texan president? Bush is bad enough as he is, no need to erode the language by calling every politician you hate a new Hitler. Adolf H and Nazi-Germany were the real thing in horror and I think this tendency to trivialize their crimes is understandable because we simply are unable to mentally grasp the magnitude of such evil. It's totally beyond human imagination. The good news are that after Hitler it will be impossible to even come distantly near - not even Stalin and not even the Red Khmers managed, even though they did their very best. Thanks, deal. Or do you have reasonable evidence that the Bush administration seriously plans to murder, say, 12- 20 million civilians, not for any strategic purpose but ONLY because it considers them not more human than insects and wants to eliminate them from earth? In general: To be fair about president Wilson; he was one of the great presidents - I based my distinction between him and Roosevelt on what I remberered from Kissinger's "Diplomacy" which I read a few years back. Rereading the chapter tonight (again, it's so boring in Bangkok) I see that Kissinger is far more positive towards Wilson than I remembered and one would assume. So I shouldn't call his policy messianism, leave that for Bush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Hippie Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 According to my adopted mother, Stalin killed or was responsible for (how ever you want to call it) more deaths than Hitler... As for the comparasions between Hitler and GWB...no, doubtful GWB will systematically kill 12-20 million, but who knows what is policies will cause? especially if Nukes are involved...the comparision is not one of the actions, but of the mind sets involved...I suppose we could call him another Napolean? As I said, I got the comparisions from my adopted dad, who was around Europe when the "festivities started." The comparison he made was in the mind set/attitudes, and how they started and then took over...I think this a fair comparision, not sure why you object to it. In any event, a boring night in BKK? it can hapen. If the reading is boring, and the girls not out, try a jazz club, or whatever, in any event, appreciate the high tone of your posts, just wish I knew what they were about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playtheblues Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 " doubtful GWB will systematically kill 12-20 million, but who knows what is policies will cause? especially if Nukes are involved...the comparision is not one of the actions, but of the mind sets involved...I suppose we could call him another Napolean". Thanks, fair enough, (never mind GWB doesn't have anything of Napoleon's political stature or Hitler's total nihilism. like a black hole in space). Now I will stick to my part of the deaL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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