America has now killed more Iraqis than Saddam did

[ChristianTroy]

Surprising that a native German does not understand the widely accepted cultural context of the notion "Rheinländer".

 

Because it isn't what he meant! I only answer this because I can see your passion for Goethe and not to lecture you!

 

There is Nordrhein Westfalen and Rheinland Pfalz

Goethe was referring to Rheinland Pfalz and he was considering hisself a P�LZER BUB (a boy from the Pfalz) Rheinländer are living in Westfalen!

 

If you read it somewhere you read it wrong! I am a Pälzer Bub myself and believe me that there is a huge difference between these 2 states!

 

 

Adenauer was a Rheinländer!!! He was from Nord Rhein Westfalen! ( I didn't say he wasn't, I said they are from 2 differen Bundesländer, pls read carefully)

[Flashermac]

OH, one of the failings of the Nuremberg trials was that they had been forbidden to investigate any alleged ALLIED war crimes in Europe (most of which on the American side seem to have involved Patton, not surprisingly). Only the soldiers and politicians of the defeated nations could be tried -- something that seldom gets mentioned.

 

 

[playtheblues]

"There is Nordrhein Westfalen and Rheinland Pfalz"

 

Thanks for infoming me, having lived five years in Nordrhein Westfalen myself.

 

But I don't understand your point.

 

My point, and what Mann wanted to say is that Goethe, as a "Rheinländer" and a world citizen, manifested his resent towards raw German nationalism as it came up during the Napoleon period. Goethe as "rheinländisch" came to represent the human, cosmopolitan side of German culture, while Schopenhauer, Nietsche and Wagner, originally strongly admired by Thomas Mann as representating the true German culture more and more seemed to carry with them dangerous tendencies, political as well as cultural and social. The international, cosmopolitan, tolerant connotation of "rheinländisch" applies to Goethe as Mann presents him irrespective if you put him geographically in Pfalz or not.

 

(Plse just say that I am wrong if you like and we leave it at that, and let the readers judge. We cannot go on forever discussing German high culture on a forum primarily designed for sex maniacs, more or less anal regressive as it seems. Reminds me of getting stuck on rock a climb in the Shawangunks, up-state NY some twentyfive years ago, aptly called "You're in the wrong place my friend". Time to say good bye, omoshirokatta desu)

 

 

 

[Old Hippie]

Flash,

 

Yeah, recall a book called "Other Casualties" about some peole executed by the allies during and after the war, all kept quiet...I know about the guarded field in Panama (Mass graves?) and the crap in El Salvador...but I suppose the attitude is basically "...we won, so that makes us right, thus we can't be criminals..." Sad, but true...

 

All that said, I do think there needs to be an international push for some sort of Tribunal regarding Bush.

 

I know there was suficient grounds to impeach Reagan and possibly try him criminally for Iran contragate, and El Salvador, but the Dems backed off sighting "...not wanting to put the country through it all..." But Ronnie basically went limp bitch after that...no ideas why the dems don't fight harder on this shit?

[Nervous_Dog]

Sorry cent, your a good mate but you copped out, you took the easy exit, instead you should have said "Fair enough, I can understand why people thin USA sucks big time, and I too agree, ""

 

But you didn't liike all americans, even though USA is No. 1 in everrything under the sun (except when Aus beat sthem at swimming) you go "ARGHHH BAD YOU BAD YOU HOW DARE YOU SAY BAD THINGS"

 

All that des is reinforce the opinion of the world that the USA is is hypersensative to critism. . . . . . . err . . . . . . even a bush disliikerr . . . like yourself . . . . . supports that viw..

 

time for you Cent to learn to change your way of nteracting with the world if you want the world to change it's view of USA

 

up to YOU'

 

DOZG

[ChristianTroy]

I honor your last sentence! It is geographically wrong, since you have lived there you know that yourself! Dunno why Mann was referring him as a RL!

[Central Scrutinizer]

Dog,

 

"Sorry cent, your a good mate but you copped out, you took the easy exit,"

 

Copped out? Where's the cop out? I agree the government we have now and what it is doing is wrong and they are doing stupid things that effect the whole world and cause more and more problems for not just Americans, but all of us in the world today. Diplomats, leaders, and statesmen they are not. Must I hate my country to not be a cop out? These guys (the constant USA bashers) shoot at easy targets, constantly, like broken records. Jump on the bandwagon really. And, worst of all, say nothng new, add nothing to a debate, and, most of all, for all their complaining, give us no real thoughts on WHAT TO DO ABOUT IT. It's just the same old same old. Boring after a while.

 

"instead you should have said "Fair enough, I can understand why people thin USA sucks big time, and I too agree, ""

 

Read carefully. I did say this. I said the government sucks big time. George Bush's government. The USA's government, not the USA itself and its people. There's the difference, Dog. Not a cop out.

 

"But you didn't liike all americans, even though USA is No. 1 in everrything under the sun (except when Aus beat sthem at swimming) you go "ARGHHH BAD YOU BAD YOU HOW DARE YOU SAY BAD THINGS"

 

Swimming? That's a sport? I thought that's what you do when the boat sinks. And I take the point of the criticisms and agree with them. It's the constant criticism (usually rabid, and nothing more then repeats of the same tired rhetoric with little to offer besides the criticism) that grows old. How about stating WHAT you think Americans CAN do to help stop this war? Maybe some concrete ideas on ways to help us do this, instead of just whinging all the time about 'bad old America, the crazy cunts'.

 

Look, your government is right alongside Bush, Dog. Doing the goosestep and agreeing with him. Do you see others constantly bitching about that here? No. Why? Why isn't there anyone saying, 'Bad, bad, Australia. They're just like the Americans." and saying "Fuck Australia". Your government is just as complicit in this stuff as mine. Your government plays follow the leader with mine, and the Brits.

 

"All that des is reinforce the opinion of the world that the USA is is hypersensative to critism. . . . . . ."

 

Oh please, this stuff goes on in this board constantly, and no one (American) says a thing usually. But if someone does, then we are 'hyper-sensitive' to criticism. Pure baloney. We take more criticism (and a lot of it justified completely) than any other group in the world, and rarely complain, because, like I said, a lot of us Americans AGREE. That is hardly being 'hyper-sensitive' and hardly 're-inforcing' any stereotypes.

 

"err . . . . . . even a bush disliikerr . . . like yourself . . . . . supports that viw.."

 

Now that is typical. So, if I see something I consider overly-critical and/or non-constructive criticism (mainly ranting BS that adds nothing) I should just 'shut up' or be considered one of those Americans that is 'hyper-sensitive'. Sounds so, uh, democratic and fair to me.

 

"time for you Cent to learn to change your way of nteracting with the world if you want the world to change it's view of USA"

 

A low and condescending statement if I ever read one mate. Does this commandment come from on high? Baiting is not nice, Dog. So which way of interacting with the world should I change? My political views (to, of course, conform to yours)? As I said, I am against Bush and his minions. I am against much that his/our government has done and is doing. I don't support the killing of innocents, on either side of the fence. Which world view of mine do you suggest I change? But most importantly in this, as some Yanks here have asked, and still haven't been answered, what would you have us do to stop the war and the Bush/Cheney political machinery? And, what about your own government and people who seem to be supporting the Bush team? Something concrete, Dog, not just more rhetoric, please.

 

We all try to do right and help people in our own small ways, where ever we reside. Some are given the chance to do more, and when they can, and do, that is great and to be applauded. But those that just constantly criticize (even when there is substance to their criticisms), without ever giving anything positive and concrete to help others see what they also might possibly do to change the situation, whatever it is, are just flapping their gums, posturing, and adding nothing to the debate and subject matter except the wonderful sound of their own voices.

 

So, let's hear your ideas on what Americans CAN do to stop the things that the rest of the world dislikes and disagrees with. The average American. The voter and citizen. Remember now, we have just as little influence and power with/over our government (except with our vote-which even can 'sometimes' not count for squat) as you do with your own government.

 

So let's hear it, as Old Hippy said, we're 'all ears'.

 

Tell us what you think we can do that might work. Tell us how you think we can fight the corporate industrial complex and the insane government policies we have. Remember, we don't have a king who can step in and support a coup to overthrow an unpopular head of state and his cronies. Sadly it is not that simple for us (and in my mind, thankfully so--'sadly' meaning sad it couldn't be that damned easy.)

 

Instead of just constantly saying 'I hate America. I'm anti-American, (which I do know is not to say that you hate 'Americans' per se, but that you do hate the things our government does and our globalizing corporations do), and Fuck America' how about giving your ideas and opinions on how to fix it? Do you have any? If so, tell us what they are.

 

"up to YOU'"

 

Not according to you.

 

By the way, have you read the Bill Bryson book?

 

Cent

 

p.s. Overly-sensitive my ass.

[Nervous_Dog]

<<"time for you Cent to learn to change your way of nteracting with the world if you want the world to change it's view of USA">>

 

Agree that was a bit harsh now I am sobber after that bastard mate of ours took me out last night.

 

Not reas Bill Bryson except bits and pieces you didn;t donate a copy along with the other books.

 

Agree totally Australia is fucked, I even consider swapping passports for a NZ one! I say also abve!

 

Point I am making is why be defensive about "America bashing"? Why not argue the points instead like you do above, but to start calling people "America Bashing" is pretty sensitive.

 

DOG - FUCKIN AUSTRALIA SUCKS THESE DAYS

[Old Hippie]

Cent and Dog,

 

Please Kiss and make up...I'll watch and take pictures and join in later...

 

Now, I have to go with Cent a bit, the constant Complaints about America get old, when no solutions are offered other than "you can vote them out..." No we can't, that has been proven. Many have stated that the USA's policies effect the forld...yet when I asked for solutions, I got none. When I asked why the rest of the world isn't applying pressure to stop and or arrest/remove this corrupt regime, again, nothing, no response...so yeah, the same iold same old gets...well...old.

[Central Scrutinizer]

Dog,

 

"Agree that was a bit harsh now I am sobber after that bastard mate of ours took me out last night."

 

Which bastard was that? The one from China?

 

"Not reas Bill Bryson except bits and pieces you didn;t donate a copy along with the other books."

 

Okay then. I just finished it and was thinking you and your Mum would love this book. It's a 2-in-1. 'A Walk in the Woods' which is his very amusing story about trying to hike the entire 2,000 and so mile Appalachian Trail with a friend/old mate of his, both out of shape but game and willing to give it a try. Very funny and interesting book. And also his book titled 'Down Under'. Lots of good info and color in this story as he visits all over Australia. This guy is funny, in an odd sense, as he is a Yank, but lived a long while in England as well. SO he comes at the subject with a weird Yank/Brit slant that is quite engaging and funny. I think you'll love this guy and these two books. I'll make sure I pack it in my bag. I am almost positive I'll be in Pattaya tomorrow afternoon, and the small Dutchman and I might pop up to Bangers for the evening to see the China living buddy and yourself and whoever else is about for the evening. I'll bring the book and figure out how to get it to you. Or, conversely, how about you guys coming to Pattaya for the weekend? A thought. Unless work once again interfers? You know what they say; work is the curse of the drinking class.

 

"Agree totally Australia is fucked, I even consider swapping passports for a NZ one! I say also abve!"

 

Yeah, but not 'Australia' -but, the damned government (semantics I know, but it helps, for me at least, to clarify). If we can vote these cunts out we'll all be a lot better off for it, as will the rest of the world, at least a little more than now anyway.

 

"Point I am making is why be defensive about "America bashing"? Why not argue the points instead like you do above, but to start calling people "America Bashing" is pretty sensitive."

 

Nah, for me at least I don't think that on this subject I am 'overly' sensitive (on other matters you are probably right). For me though I read these posts and think, "Well, yeah, but besides just ranting on it, well, where's the meat, where are the thoughts, ideas, and opinions that might help me, as an American, and others around the world reading this stuff, to maybe do something constructive to change things? Just saying "I hate America!" Or, "I am anti-American!" or the classic, "Fuck America!" gets so damned boring to read and does nothing whatsoever. I'd rather hear what others think can be done, ideas on the small things that collectively might make a change, something with some meat on it to consider, rather than just a 'rah rah America sucks' type of post. It just smacks of 'jumping on' the popular bandwagon, with little if any substance other than the popular rhetoric. If we are going to talk about this stuff we need to at least put some meat on the bone to chew over.

 

"DOG - FUCKIN AUSTRALIA SUCKS THESE DAYS"

 

Yeah, well I still want to visit one day. Bryson made some very significant insights in his book that made me realize I know fuck-all about your country and the people really. I'll bring the book and maybe you'll see what I mean when you read it.

 

So, Saturday evening? What's your plans? Is that Minneapolis wanker around? Does Pattaya for a night or weekend sound fun? The hotel I stay at is cheap and decent with a new pool. 700 baht a night, and the pool is newly refurbished only a year or so ago. Decent Soi Bukhao area close to everything really. And there is a nice used-book shop (Swan Books) a 2 minute walk away from the hotel to browse through. And a beach to lie about on and drink beers and discuss the political situation in the world, or prance about in OH's thong bikini (I hear he left it with you for safekeeping).

 

If not, then how is Saturday night in Bangkok? Flooded?

 

Cent