We didn’t have to wait long for Israel’s latest outrage

[Specialist]

Without going into the whole history of the conflict, which I know you would like me to in order to distract attention from the present Israeli outrage, but here's a simple question:

 

Why must the Palestinians be made refugees as a punishment for what [color:red]Egyptians, Syrians, Iraqis, Romans, Germans, Russians, English, Irish, French, Swiss, Moroccans, Poles, Ukrainians, Moldovans, Argentinians, Romanians, Libyans,Hungarians,Slovakians and even the Protestan reformer Martin Luther[/color] have done to Jews?

The flip side of that is this: Why are the Palestinians being forced, by Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iran to REMAIN refugees in refugee camps?

 

This is not the first time in human history that people have been chased out of their ancestral homelands (alleged or otherwise), by force or the threat of force. (To cite ONE recent example: Have you noticed the number of Vietnamese-Americans in the US these days?) In every other such event, the neighboring countries made room for the newcomers, who frequently arrived with nothing at all, and helped them to build new homes and new lives. For some reason, none of the neighbors of "Palestine" have done any of that. Instead, the Palestinians are imprisoned, by everyone around them, not just the Israelis.

 

And I note that the Egyptian border is in fact open right now, and lots of "Palestinians" are in fact cutting and running.

 

[chuckwoww]

Check your facts. If you include their descendants Jordan took in nearly 2 million refugees most of whom have become Jordanian citizens. Lebanon and Syria each took about half a million. Saudi Arabia has a quarter million Palestinians. There are more Palestinians outside Israel than in. Those left in the West Bank are people who still own land there, or think they do. One reason Egypt helps with the blockade on Gaza is because they can't handle a large influx of people. They have enough.

[Specialist]

So?

 

Egypt doesn't have to take all of them. They can call around, call in favors, manage the New Home Town Lottery, trans-ship the Palestinians to wherever.

 

Lots of land in Australia.

 

Lots of land in South America.

 

Heck, Egypt could build expansion ghettos just across the street from Gaza, and the UN refugee commissioners could keep their cushy jobs and expand their staffs to handle the bigger camps.

 

One gets the feeling occasionally that MAYBE the Arab world knows something about these "Palestinians" that they don't want to admit, for fear they'd confirm that Israel's concerns about them are well-founded.

 

And one remembers quite well those halcyon days of 1983, when Syria and Israel were BOTH shelling Yasser Arafat's position, Israel because he was a skunk, and Syria because he wasn't ENOUGH of a skunk: he'd dared to suggest that he'd be willing to consider a political solution involving peaceful coexistence, and that was 100% unacceptable to Syria.

 

[robaus]

Specialist asks;

 

>>In all sincerity, what do you suggest?

 

Flashermac said:

 

>>So what is your solution?

 

I think Chocolat Steve expressed an interest earlier on too.

 

 

Here's my peace plan that I mentioned on this site 12 months ago, and have been promoting on other sites for the last 10 years.

Yasser Arafat and Ehud Barak came so close to agreement on the essentials of this plan at Camp David in July 2000, then Clinton was sadly called away to a G8 summit.

 

In the 3 day absence of his charisma and cajoling, the agreement fell apart. What a tragedy! If only Clinton had got them to sign sooner, Israel and Palestine could have been living in a peaceful 2 state solution for the last 10 years. They had both already agreed on land swaps and sharing Jerusalem The only outstanding item was return of Palestinian refugees which I address below. Plus I have a novel twist that I haven’t seen elsewhere!

 

Here's the deal:

 

1. A bit of give and take. Israel swaps border land equivalent "in area" to West Bank land occupied in 1967, so that Israel can keep its large post 67 border settlements.

I'm talking 100% equivalent - not 97% causing a leftover pretext to derail the peace process. Yes, there will be some extremists on both sides who still want either the total destruction of Israel or the total ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from "Judaea and Samaria". But they are on the fringes. Let them blah blah blah. The majority simply want to live peacefully. The land area of a freeway connecting Gaza to West Bank could count towards the land swaps area tally. I read quite recently that Mahmoud Abbas is prepared to swap up to 3.5% of pre 67 land... that's ample to satisfy all Israel’s large border settlement needs..

 

2. Allow some geriatric Palestinian refugees who were actually born in Israel (not relatives born since) to return... if they prefer it to a full cash compensation to help them resettle in the new Palestine. They'll soon die out anyway. Other refugees to be hugely compensated from an international fund. ($$ for rebuilding lives, jobs and peace much better than spent on bullets and bombs.. it would be chickenfeed for the international community compared with the $$trillions they would earn from reconstruction projects and trade across all borders in the region)

 

3. A face saving deal over Jerusalem, respecting both religions and peoples. I don't think Israel will go for the international city idea, but how about a slice of East Jerusalem for a Palestine capital . Let cleverer minds work on that one. Ehud Barak was prepared to offer everything above the Wailing Wall with joint ownership of Temple Mount. Very reasonable I thought.

 

4. A completely demilitarised Palestine with only lightly armed police as in Costa Rica or unarmed as in Uk apart from a special SWAT team. Israel or UN looks after external Palestinian security.

 

5. The Golan Heights must be returned, if Israel ever wants peace with Syria. Obviously with its strategic importance rock solid UN/NATO/Israeli monitored security must be guaranteed for Israel.

 

6. The carrot: after 5 - 10 years of peace and prosperity, Israel and Palestine are invited to join the EU just like Cyprus 130 miles away. They could then live, work and worship in each others countries anyway!

 

With a proviso that retains the Jewish right of return to Israel. So that descendants of Jews who fled pogroms and the Holocaust can have a stepping stone to reclaim their European heritage. With peace perhaps more of world Jewry would at least register their citizenship in Israel to offset any demographic imbalance that Israel is so worried about.

 

At the Arab League summit in 2002 ALL Arab countries (yes Syria and Libya included!) have already agreed to recognize Israel's secure borders fully in return for the above.- exchange of ambassadors, total end to hostilities, open trade and travel. .. everything that Israelis yearn for.

 

Israelis and Palestinians could be sitting on the most valuable piece of real estate in the world. $$ billions of EU, US and other investment funds would pour in. Tourists would flock there in their millions to enjoy the climate and all the historical, cultural and religious treasures.

 

Young Israelis and Palestinians could lead normal teenage lives, rather than being brutalized for 3 years in the army and suicide bomber schools.

 

The wind would be taken out of the sails of terrorists and rogue nations worldwide who use the Arab/Israeli conflict as an excuse for war.

 

Can you just imagine the dynamic of Israel and Palestine working together - the know how, the investment drive, the pent-up energy now wasted in war and unemployment, and the world's good will. It would unleash an economic renaissance akin to the Chindia phenomenon that would swamp recession.

 

And what a beacon of enlightenment it would be to the rest of the Middle East and the world... a far more effective way of exporting democracy!

 

I hope Obama can bring both parties together to reach a lasting peace agreement that would kickstart the world economy - just what we all need!

 

At least, Israel, give it a try. All your previous strategies have failed over the last 60 years. Israel is just as besieged today as in 1948... and the world is becoming a more dangerous place... for Israel too. One day some terrorist may sneak past Israel's defences and plant a dirty WMD in Tel Aviv. Then it's curtains for all of us. How many hundreds of Israelis have been killed so far (how many thousands of Palestinians thus generating more hatred of Israel?).

What a waste of $$$ and lives. Not cost effective.

 

If Israelis agreed in principle to the final status, then they could complete the peace deal in stages, testing the waters as they go, and giving the majority Palestinians hope and an incentive to stick to the agreement process.

 

I have travelled extensively, and people are the same the world over. Most simply want peace, freedom, health, education, security, prosperity, and the chance to give their family a better life than they had. Get the majority onside and the extremists will be side-lined.

 

Israel can't escape its geography. Israelis are destined to spend eternity with Palestinians and other Arabs neighbours. Israel has somehow got to make its enemies its friends if it wants a lasting peace.

 

Shalom. Inshallah.

 

Any suggestions, tweaks, flaws … apart from the usual pessimism that the extremists wouldn't wear it. Of course extremists never like a compromise. They still don't in Northern Ireland, but most Protetants and Catholics have so gotten used to the peace and prosperity now, that for the majority there's no turning back to terrorism.

 

Feel free to pass this plan on to any site you like. Please bring it to the ears of politicians in your country. Claim it as your own… it’s giveaway freeware. There's no copyright on peace.

 

 

[kamui]

Robaus, just side note: if you cut your pamphlets down to 10 line I think others will actually read them (me included).

 

This is not a political seminar... :content:

[Steve]

Right Steve but I was kinda including Jewish Americans in the public. Quite a lot of leading Jewish figures are worried about the way Israel is heading. Not sure how much clout they have.

 

Israel have been in far more controversial circumstances and haven't been abondoned by jewish americans. This latest controversy won't change a damn thing.

 

Obama is not exactly seen as the ideal supporter of Israel. He knows it. So politically, we won't see much coming from him in the way of punishment. He has to get re-elected and a few of the swing states as well as large states have a large jewish vote (Florida, NY).

 

If he is re-elected is when you may find Obama becoming tougher.

 

I'm not just saying its jewish americans. Cuban Americans and Cuba, latinos and immigration, etc.

[robaus]

>>This is not the first time in human history that people have been chased out of their ancestral homelands (alleged or otherwise), by force or the threat of force.

 

... but that’s a Two wrongs don't make a right. fallacy. Just because someone mugs a victim and gets away with it many times even, doesn’t make mugging acceptable.

 

Many injustices have been perpetrated in the past that seemed OK at the time .. the Romans used to feed Christians to the lions, slavery was an handy source of plantation labour, women were considered unfit to vote, African Americans used to have to drink at separate water fountains and sit at the back of the bus. But hopefully we’ve moved on since then. Israel has got to do the same if they want peace. The problem is not going to disappear. If anything it’s going to get worse, unless some enlightened politicians make some brave concessions.

 

The problem is that Israel is trying to act like a colonial power in the 21st century when most people in the 20th century have been seeking independence and freedom.

 

After a 2,000 year absence in the Diaspora, Zionist Jews have staged their comeback about 100 years too late. The whole world is watching now.

 

No doubt if there’d been mobile phones, Twitter, Facebook and iPads at Wounded Knee, the world would be as equally appalled then as they are now at this Israeli outrage.

 

You may moot fantasy ideas about convenient mass (forced?) assimilations of Palestinian refugees into neighbouring countries to sweep the problem under the carpet, but you know in your heart of hearts it ain’t going to happen.

 

Palestinians have been fighting for their right to self determination for the last 62 years (longer in fact), so they are not going to give up now, just as the world becomes more and more aware of and sympathetic to their plight.

 

Israelis from their own persecutd past ought to be aware of that history lesson, so it’s up to some courageous politicians to come forward and sort it.

 

I noticed there have been large demonstrations from righteous Israelis yesterday protesting their own government‘s brutality, and headlines in Israeli papers “Absolute Stupidityâ€Â

 

Maybe the Palestinians will be smart enough to capitalize on this latest Israeli scandal…that peace activism gets bigger headlines than puny rockets. As one Israeli official put it the other day when they shot themselves in the foot with their usual overkill sledge hammer to crack a nut approach… “We have a propaganda problemâ€Â

 

:beer;

 

 

[chuckwoww]

So?

 

Egypt doesn't have to take all of them. They can call around, call in favors, manage the New Home Town Lottery, trans-ship the Palestinians to wherever.

 

Lots of land in Australia.

 

Lots of land in South America.

 

Heck, Egypt could build expansion ghettos just across the street from Gaza, and the UN refugee commissioners could keep their cushy jobs and expand their staffs to handle the bigger camps.

 

One gets the feeling occasionally that MAYBE the Arab world knows something about these "Palestinians" that they don't want to admit, for fear they'd confirm that Israel's concerns about them are well-founded.

 

And one remembers quite well those halcyon days of 1983, when Syria and Israel were BOTH shelling Yasser Arafat's position, Israel because he was a skunk, and Syria because he wasn't ENOUGH of a skunk: he'd dared to suggest that he'd be willing to consider a political solution involving peaceful coexistence, and that was 100% unacceptable to Syria.

 

You are wrong about Arab countries not taking in refugees. They had no choice. But you are right about the PLO being a big problem for Lebanon.

 

What the Arab world and Israelis both know is that the Palestinians won't forgive and forget. By living in shit in Gaza they are at least a thorn in Israel's side. And it's very unlikely they would accept your offer and disappear meekly onto a reservation in Australia, assuming the Aussies would agree to such a deal which I doubt. Some people refuse to be managed.

[robaus]

Point taken, thanks.

 

My peace plan:

 

1. 3% Land swaps - both agreed already

2. Palestinian refugees - compensation

3. A face saving deal over Jerusalem

4. A completely demilitarised Palestine

5. Golan Heights must be returned to Syria

6. Israel and Palestine invited to join EU

7. World Jewry can use Israel as stepping stone to regain European heritage.

8. All neighbouring countries to recognise Israel's final secure borders plus normalised relations - Arab summit 2002 already agreed to this.

9. End to global recession with M.E. economic renaissance

 

 

[Guest lazyphil]

thats better, i have time for this!