We didn’t have to wait long for Israel’s latest outrage

[acockasian]

So?

 

Egypt doesn't have to take all of them. They can call around' date=' call in favors, manage the New Home Town Lottery, trans-ship the Palestinians to wherever.

 

Lots of land in Australia.

 

Lots of land in South America.

 

Heck, Egypt could build expansion ghettos just across the street from Gaza, and the UN refugee commissioners could keep their cushy jobs and expand their staffs to handle the bigger camps.

 

One gets the feeling occasionally that MAYBE the Arab world knows something about these "Palestinians" that they don't want to admit, for fear they'd confirm that Israel's concerns about them are well-founded.

 

And one remembers quite well those halcyon days of 1983, when Syria and Israel were BOTH shelling Yasser Arafat's position, Israel because he was a skunk, and Syria because he wasn't ENOUGH of a skunk: he'd dared to suggest that he'd be willing to consider a political solution involving peaceful coexistence, and that was 100% unacceptable to Syria.

[/quote']

 

You are wrong about Arab countries not taking in refugees. They had no choice. But you are right about the PLO being a big problem for Lebanon.

 

What the Arab world and Israelis both know is that the Palestinians won't forgive and forget. By living in shit in Gaza they are at least a thorn in Israel's side. And it's very unlikely they would accept your offer and disappear meekly onto a reservation in Australia, assuming the Aussies would agree to such a deal which I doubt. Some people refuse to be managed.

 

I think Jordan is half Palestinian.

[robaus]

Ah the return of my # 1 fan

 

I've missed you, LP.

[robaus]

>>I see it, as a security issue, and so does the USA, UN and others.

... WRONG! Maybe you see the illegal blockade as a security issue, but Hillary, Tony Blair and Ban Ki Moon don't... tell them, not me mate. They call it "unsustainable and unacceptable" amongst other things.

 

When a policy isn't working, is acually counter productive and is alienating Israel from global opinion, then change tack and think smarter.

 

 

 

[robaus]

>>Did the Al Jazeera reporter also state that the thug pax of the ship threw stun grenades? I beleive Al Jazeera about as much as Fox News.

 

... Wouldn't you agree that it might clear matters up, if Israel released the full unedited film from the start of the boarding plus the Al Jazeera and other passenger footage that Israel has stolen.

... but I wouldn't hold your breath on that one.

 

Let me get this straight, you are willing to dismiss Al Jazeera footage that you have not even seen yet?

 

How very open minded of you.

 

[robaus]

Kamui,

 

>>It is the first time that I hear the comedy kills

.. I have to disagree. Satire is a very powerful and dangerous tool. When people are stereotyped, they become dehumanized. When they become “not real people like us†its easier to kill them.

 

No doubt there were lots of Jewish jokes and caricatures (google images: jewish caricature nazi … 44,500 hits ) doing the rounds in Nazi Germany in the 1930s. So that when Jews were humiliated in the streets, rounded up and put in cattle trucks to Auschwitz, the average German thought “Well they’re only Jews, they deserve it.â€Â

 

No doubt your example of Mad Mullah humour was popular amongst Abu Graib prison guards. But when their “happy snaps†hit the internet, attacks on US and Allied soldiers increased.

 

Racism/religionism is insidious. My email inbox is full of racist shite every day from friends I previously thought intelligent and compassionate.

 

Another instance: my cousin is dying of cancer. Only weeks left. She’s religious, caring, and absolutely adores animals. She has bombarded me with Live for the Day, Appreciate What You Have stuff, beautiful animal and wonders of nature pics which hit the mark with me too. Then suddenly the last couple of weeks I’ve started getting hate filled racist immigrant jokes from her too… this in a land where 97% of the population are fucking immigrants! I just feel so sad that she’s going to her grave distracted by hate.

 

I have a very good sense of humour and some of it far from pc.

But I think racist/religionist humour can be insidiously dangerous.

 

 

[Wallenda]

I think most of this actually has been agreed upon already, no? I never heard of the EU thing tho. Which parts of this did you totally create yourself, if any?

 

Yeah but ... I think Rabin or even the big guy who's in a coma now would've gone for something like this. I would guess that there'd be a firm majority (guess: 65-70%) in Israel at least who'd go for it, albeit with a very passionate minority willing to chain themselves to trees to prevent it. You know the type. Beards and curly sideburns usually. No racist offense meant, just that the most loopy of the extremists on Israel's side do tend to have a certain style sense. Anyway, the biggest obstacle I could see would be the loopy ones on the Palestinian side. No? Last time I looked at a survey done, there was a majority over there against any kind of reasonable compromise, against stopping rockets and bombings and whatnot. That was awhile back tho, a few yrs.

 

I think there's pepole on both sides of the border who would be up for having this settled with some kind of compromise. The problem is the ones on each side who aren't.

[robaus]

>>Which parts of this did you totally create yourself, if any?

 

.. all of it. Dinkum… Aussies' most sacred oath for "honest" or swearing on Banjo Patterson's grave.

 

I recall posting this on Lonely Planet forum (when they still had a politics forum) and various Palestinian and /Zionist forums in the 1990s.

 

The bit I did not know was the extent to which both sides had agreed over the fate of Jerusalem. It was only about 3 years ago I saw an excellent documentary on Australia Pacific TV in Pattaya re Clinton's 2000 Camp David talks. Ehud Barak came across as very magnanimous, and Arafat as a bit of a prima donna making himself unavailable once Clinton was absent. Barak said something like 10 metres up the Waling Wall and all Temple excavations under Temple Mount would be Israeli, the rest of East Jerusalem Palestinian.

 

I think both were actually shit scared of what their electorate would say when they got back home, having made too many concessions. They both tried to continue discussions over a private family dinner at Barak’s home in Jerusalem and had agreed to further talks at Taba.

 

Then the "fat bloke" the not particularly religious Ariel Sharon on 28 September 2000 made his famous stroll upon Temple Mount with over 1,000 bodyguards, (not that he was expecting any trouble!), some hot heads threw some stones, the next Intifada began and Sharon won the next election. The rest is mainly right wing Israeli history.

 

>>I think there's people on both sides of the border who would be up for having this settled with some kind of compromise. The problem is the ones on each side who aren't.

 

… from memory some sort of independent joint Israeli/Palestinian survey mob did a phone poll about 6 years ago?? (must dig up reference). Result a majority of Palestinians and Israelis simply wanted peace. I recall that the survey team had their Palestinian offices trashed by Palestinian extremists. Something happened on the Israeli side too.

 

It just needs some enlightened politicians on both sides, some international pressure, and honest brokers to push the moderates together to sideline the extremists.

 

If extremists on either side win, it will leave unfinished business, and no lasting peace.

 

The moderates must win, with face saving concessions from both, to satisfy the majority on both sides.

 

Shalom. Inshallah.

[shygye]

...

 

Let me get this straight, you are willing to dismiss Al Jazeera footage that you have not even seen yet?

 

How very open minded of you.

 

 

It is your mind that is completely closed. You somehow dismiss these nonviolent peace activists attacking the soldiers with metal pipes.

[kamui]

The blame game begins in Israel:

 

 

Military, politicos blame each other for botched Gaza flotilla raid

 

The politicians look at the bungled raid and see the cause in the operation's planning - in the Navy and faulty intelligence. The General Staff says it was Netanyahu and Barak who assessed the raid wouldn't raise such world reactions.

 

 

Tensions are mounting between military and political leaders over the raid on the Turkish aid ship Mavi Marmara. Each side suspects the other of trying to blame it for the bungled operation and consequent crisis.

 

The kind of inquiry panel into the affair has not been decided, but the debates about it are upping tensions among the top defense and political echelons. Apparently, the favored idea is to set up a civilian, rather than a military, inquiry - with the possible participation of a foreign observer.

 

[color:blue]The politicians[/color] look at the bungled raid and see the cause in the operation's planning - in [color:red]the Navy and faulty intelligence[/color] - so the naval commando lacked a proper understanding of the kind of confrontation awaiting the soldiers on deck.

 

[color:blue]The General Staff[/color], however, says [color:red]it was Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu[/color] and Defense Minister Ehud Barak who were complacent about the flotilla and assessed that the raid would not raise such world reactions. It appears that the debate in the seven ministers' forum was relatively superficial and did not go into the operation's details. Netanyahu was in Canada during the raid and cut his visit short following the international flaying brought on by the incident.

 

It has become obvious that cooperation among the various groups preparing for the flotilla's arrival was deficient. The Israel Navy and General Staff held dozens of advance meetings over weeks, but virtually none involved other relevant offices like the Foreign Ministry or government public relations experts.

 

Due to the restricted involvement, the IDF led the preparations not only for the operation itself but for all aspects. Israel Navy commander Admiral Eliezer Marom and the navy drafted the operation with the participation of Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi and his deputy, Major General Benny Gantz.

 

The insufficient intelligence for the operation is renewing the grumbles between the IDF leadership and the Mossad. [color:blue]The IDF[/color] says the [color:red]espionage agency[/color] did not properly use its resources in gathering intelligence about the flotilla.

 

The General Staff's intelligence section will examine the possibility that intelligence that could have improved the Navy's preparation for taking over the ships was "stuck in the pipes" and did not reach the Navy in time.

 

The Israel Navy is defending the raid's operative plan and claims it provided adequate solutions even to the unexpected circumstances on board. However, criticism of the operation in the IDF is increasing.

 

Senior officers said over the weekend it is important to distinguish between the combatants' bravery and their exemplary performance during the takeover and the intelligence and operational plan. Officers have slammed the absence of the element of surprise and the decision to raid six ships simultaneously, which prevented concentrating a larger force on the Mavi Marmara.

 

By way of comparison, the navy on Saturday took over the Gaza-bound Irish ship Rachel Corrie in the Mediterranean Sea. Commandos boarded the ship, encountering no resistance, and towed it to Ashdod port.

 

Haaretz

:content:

[robaus]

>>You somehow dismiss these nonviolent peace activists attacking the soldiers with metal pipes.

 

... nice spin , shygye. Without even seeing what might have provoked the peace activists such as stun gunning or killing their fellow activists.. because your Israeli mates won't release all the footage. You instantly side with the armed Israeli commandos who illegally stormed aboard a ship in international waters shot dead 9 people, and somehow claim they are the victims. And you swallow it hook line and sinker.

 

Sorry, guv, the offender fell on my boot as he resisted arrest.

 

Maybe Fox Noise will persuade their Zionist minders to "Give us all the facts and we decide"

 

Doesn't all this spin :spin: make you dizzy, shygye?