soongmak Posted June 19, 2002 Report Share Posted June 19, 2002 Madmax, I have been thinking about the high numbers of prostitues in Thailand, but basically I cannot come up with any answers as to WHY thailand should have more prostitutes than neigbouring countries. I even ask myself if this is true. People in Singapore often travel to Batam in Indonesia for the cheap availability of sex. In Jakarta cheap sex can be easily had, too. If you go to cambodia and travel the streets of Pnom Penh, prostitution is very rife, too. Bangladesh got hordes of prostitutes working in the most deplorable circumstances. India has loads of prostitutes as well. What makes thailand so different? I think that the main difference is the visibility of the sex scene to farangs, that there?s actually a scene that caters almost exclusively to farangs. Thailand shares this discutable honour with the philippines. The huge domestic demand for prostitution is very high in neigbouring countries as well. I saw a report on tv yesterday about prostitution in Indonesia, and it featured parents as well who sent their daughters off to work in a brothel, not because they were poor, but because of the desire for luxury goods. I also do not think that this is exclusively a thai attitude. My question is this: Why do you think that in Thailand prostitution is acceptable? Why is it OK to visit brothels? What is the motivation for the parents to sent their daughters off to a brothel, I mean, what makes it OK for them, BESIDES the money? I do not think you can find the reasons in Thai culture. If you can, please let me know. I think it is still a matter of poverty and a lack of education. When a girl starts working in the brothel, the money poors in, and she (or her parents) might just get greedy. Or they get greedy because they watch the sudden relative wealth of their neighbors. The lack of education means that people simply have less possibilities to make decent money, and that is why more people flock to prostitution to escape poverty. Just listen to bargirls when they talk about regular jobs. It is always the same. They want to work in a beauty parlor, better yet, own one, or start some kind of shop, selling clothes or food. That?s about all they know how to make money. And indeed, what other possibilities are there when you even lack the education to work behind the cash register in a 7/11? Selling your pussy is just the easy way out for girls with little opportunities and high pressure to make some money. I read the book by Pasuk about a year ago and although it offers great info on the extent of the illegal economy, in my memory it offered little or no explanation as to why prostitution is specifically a thai problem because of thai culture. Unless you can prove me wrong off course.... Cheers, SOONGMAK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 19, 2002 Report Share Posted June 19, 2002 [color:blue]>Being around people who are relatively easily entertained or pleased is quite refreshing and makes all of us appreciate our lives much more. You?ve got to make sure it is the genuine feeling though. Often times we, me included, show our appreciation to someone who has bought something to us eventhough we don?t like it at all. Why? It?s just because we don?t want to hurt their feelings. I?m sure Westerners are doing the same thing. Call it ?face? , call it whatever you want. But the point is you have to be sure if you are really appreciated. color=blue> Why? Why is it our responsibility to make sure our actions are truly appreciated? If a woman wants to pretend she is happy when she is not, wants to fake orgasms, ... whatever, that is her loss. Honesty is a key to building relationships. There is nothing wrong with thanking someone for the horrible gift they have given you, if you want to be polite. However, you have only yourself to blame if they give you the same crap the next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 19, 2002 Report Share Posted June 19, 2002 [color:blue]Haven't it occured to your minds why many poorer countries don't have so many prostitutes like Thailand? For instance, India, Bangladesh or Nepal. These girls choose not to. Why is that so? Poor or not is not the issue, don't you think?color=blue> This is absolutely, utterly wrong (IMHO). Even assuming your info on prostitution rates were correct, these girls don't enter prostitution for a simple reason: they aren't given that option (not a reasonable choice, at least). Your statement presupposes that prostitution is evil and bad for women. If you drop that assertion you can just let the women choose for themselves the lives they wish to lead, rather than you (or me) telling them what their proper path should be. Find a country where prostitution is legal, where there is no permanent stigma attached, and where the compensation is fair (i.e. balanced with regard to the risk and "unpleasantness" of the job relative to other jobs). If the young women in this country choose to avoid prostitution and work in the factories instead, then you may have a point. Women in these countries you allude to aren't more morally pure, they are brainwashed and handcuffed. Thailand is more free legally and has less stigma regarding prostitution and the job is well paid. That is why Thai women choose that over factory work. If you think these women are making poor decisions then help them to make better ones. If working in a factory is the better choice, find a way to let them know that without making a moral judgement. I don't believe factory work is the best choice for many, so I wouldn't presume to lecture them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 19, 2002 Report Share Posted June 19, 2002 [color:blue]How can we fully appreciate it if he omitted an important piece of info not to mention didn?t tell the full story??? Is it fair for the readers? If you want to share a story like this and don?t want to reveal your identity maybe you should register on another name. I don?t? like people who mislead other people.color=blue> Thalenoi's post was not misleading. Disclosing that he was still married may have served your agenda or prurient interests, but was not relevant to the point of his post. I'm sure many other details of his life would interest you and could be used to judge his life choices, but they are not your business. His post had great value even though it was not full disclosure. [color:blue]Any way, to answer your question, yes, he is taking his time. But she isn't getting anywhere because Thalenoi is married. Her security is not as secure as getting married to him, right? How long is he going to take care of her? No one even him dare not to answer? May be his wife? Many guys here look down on married Thai men because they have mia noi and younger girls on the side. But one of the moderators are doing EXACTLY the same thing. DOUBLE STANDARD ? (If you have a standard at all.)color=blue> "She isn't getting anywhere." She already is somewhere. You seem to have blinders on that a relationship (or whatever you want to call this) must be full and complete commitment (i.e. marriage) or nothing. Thalenoi and his girl have found an arrangement that is beneficial to both of them or they would not be in it. He is under no moral obligation to marry the girl (or divorce his wife for that matter). Have you never dated? At what point in the relationship did you expect the guy to propose to you before you considered that he was wasting your time? 1 date, 1 week, 6 months? If you think there is a double standard then you should identify those people and address your concerns to them. I don't recall anyone here chastising Thai men about having mia nois. Real world relationships are more complicated and less idealized than you care to admit; it is not possible for everyone to be completely satisfied with any one solution especially when it is expected to last a lifetime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 19, 2002 Report Share Posted June 19, 2002 SoongMak wrote: Madmax, I have been thinking about the high numbers of prostitues in Thailand, but basically I cannot come up with any answers as to WHY thailand should have more prostitutes than neigbouring countries. I even ask myself if this is true. I don't have the stats so I don't even know if it's true, but it sure seems that way. As to why, you got me. I would guess it has to do partly with religion, partly with traditions (concubines were seen as a sign of prosperity for centuries), partly with sexual mores (which are an odd mixture of permissivness and prudishness). But I think in Thailand the male culture is a lot more open about being a consumer of these institutions and female culture about working in them. That spans the gamut from mia noi through karaoke, tea house, gogo bar, to massage parlor or brothel. I don't know of any place else where these are as publicly visibile, and openly frequented with very little stigma attached. Take for example the fact that in Isaan it seems rather common for a young Thai male to marry (whatever that means) a girl, have a baby or two, and then kick her out and find another girl. With no obligations to his ex or to the children he fathered. This phenomenon alone is responsible for creating a circumstance that brings perhaps 80% of the bar-girls to the BKK/PTY circuit. I am convinced the explanation lies in the culture, but I don't understand it well enough to be able to paint the whole picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattaya127 Posted June 19, 2002 Report Share Posted June 19, 2002 Your statement presupposes that prostitution is evil and bad for women. --------------------------------- Whatever it is, I think men/customers are not qualified to answer this question. Actually, it's not enough that some women may see it as just another career choice (if they really do), but the ones who don't take up on it, should also consider it a career choice, though not their choice. Until NanaP farang guys have experienced being screwed by different women every night, or more per day, for the money, I don't see that they are qualified to know how it feels to go into the trade. Maybe heaven, maybe evil, but not our expertise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 19, 2002 Report Share Posted June 19, 2002 pattaya127 wrote: >Your statement presupposes that prostitution is evil and bad for women. Whatever it is, I think men/customers are not qualified to answer this question. P127, I don't think solipsism is the answer. Volumes have been written on the topic. I don't think there's much doubt that most women would prefer other professions. I don't think there's much doubt that many women who stay in the trade develop a personality profile that is hardly desirable. Hell, I myself stay away from ladies who have been around for more than a few months! In these respects, and many others, I think prostitution is bad for women. There are other angles though. Even if we assume it's bad, the question is, is it worse than the alternatives? And things break down here. Is it better to work in a factory for 4,000 Baht per month, 10 hours a day, with 2 days off per month? This is where the women have to make their own choice. And if anyone is judgmental of the choice they make, I suggest they live the alternatives for a few years before making any self-righteous statements. Long time ago Long Gun posted an interesting treatise on prostitution in Thailand as a socio-economic force that gives women power, both monetary and psychological, that they would not otherwise be able to attain. I think it was back on the old board; if so, could you pls repost, LG? It was fascinating reading! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long Gun Posted June 20, 2002 Report Share Posted June 20, 2002 I'm not sure if this is the piece you mentioned but by some bizarre coincidence I reposted this elsewhere today. Not my words - they actually come from a much-derided farang woman - but contain a lot of truth, I think. LG "I believed Patpong prostitutes had advantages over non-prostitute Thai women who didn't belong to the rich upper class. They had more independence and opportunities. They were more worldly. They met and maintained contact with people from around the globe. They had experiences they'd never otherwise be exposed to, such as flying in planes and being taken abroad to work. People taught them to swim, bowl, play snooker, drive motorbikes. They learned English and other languages. They became daring. Having broken one of society's taboos, they dared to break more. They went out alone at night and traveled on their own. They met people easily. They developed skills to obtain what they wanted. Becoming deft at hustling they recognized their ability to influence their environment. They stepped into ventures confident that they'd find someone along the way to pay. Most importantly, they had money. Money allowed them to fulfil familial obligations while providing freedom of movement. They felt pride in seeing their parents' new houses, built with their earnings. They returned to their villages as superstars distributing alms. With money, they bought the symbols of success: clothes, accessories, and electronics. It gave them the base to lay plans for the future. Money also gave them leeway to escape bad relationships, unpleasant situations, and the harshness of village life. It provided the wherewithal to do nothing if that's what they wanted. Patpong itself offered the comfort and stability of an esoteric community. The girls had their own friends, VD doctor, moneylender. They had a favourite afterhours club. They knew the Patpong taxi and motorbike drivers who took them home. They knew the staff of short- time hotels." "Working Patpong offered adventure, excitement and romance. It was an alternative to low-paid, long-hour factory work or other non- skilled labour. It was easier than planting rice. It was one place they could return to in time of need. It was a place where women could express their anger at the way society fashioned Thai men - an outlet for revenge where women could reject them, at least verbally" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shotover Posted June 20, 2002 Report Share Posted June 20, 2002 From the late Cleo Odzer, "Patpong Sisters". Her book has been critisized on some Thai message boards, but I was impressed with the observations and insight she gained. Didn't understand her attraction to the Patpong boy touts though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 20, 2002 Report Share Posted June 20, 2002 LongGun wrote: I'm not sure if this is the piece you mentioned. . . LG, no, there is something you wrote, with personal anecdotes, it was several pages long, I remember I tried to save it off the old board but couldn't. The spirit was similar to the above post but it was a lot more detailed and persuasive. Btw, I'm sending a PM your way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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