Cent, Thalenoi, everybody,and the thread '6 months with a BG'

[phoenix]

Madmax: >I am convinced the explanation lies in the culture, but I don't understand it well enough to be able to paint the whole picture. <

 

 

 

Yes it is in the culture, and has a lot to do with a similar 'cultural' attitude in neighbouring countries.

 

Forgive me if I sound like feminist rethoric , but women are brought up in these countries with the duty to serve men, that men are 'more important, need to be obeyed, and that elders need to be obeyed. It is simply an issue of power differential.

 

 

 

In a progressive western European country I had this discussion with a professional sex worker, a good looking assertive women in her late twenties, who told me that she believed that she had the right to choose her profession, and any social measures or regulations to prevent her from doing so were patronising and an infringement of her individual rights. She WAS free to choose, had been brought up without the attitude of subservience, duty and "men are more powerful by right".

 

But In LOS and many other parts of Asia the situation is quite different.

[phoenix]

P127: >Until NanaP farang guys have experienced being screwed by different women every night, or more per day, for the money, I don't see that they are qualified to know how it feels to go into the trade. Maybe heaven, maybe evil, but not our expertise. <

 

 

 

Yes, I agree!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[phoenix]

MadMax: >There are other angles though. Even if we assume it's bad, the question is, is it worse than the alternatives? And things break down here. Is it better to work in a factory for 4,000 Baht per month, 10 hours a day, with 2 days off per month? This is where the women have to make their own choice. And if anyone is judgmental of the choice they make, I suggest they live the alternatives for a few years before making any self-righteous statements.<

 

 

 

I am not at all judgemental of that choice, if they make it freely! But I think under the influences of culture, pressure to do their filial duty etc, I think many are not making what we in the west would call a choice by giving free and informed consent. A choice made under the haevy pressure from Parents, boyfriends, husbands etc is hardly a free choice.

 

 

 

As I described elsewhere, when 'Nok' told her mother that she wouldn't bring in the income from farang or her previous job as BG, the mother dispatched the younger sister to BKK, to take over the duty to supply the family with an income. Not because of poverty, because in the village, they were reasonably well of. But to keep the flow of money, to keep the face of the family.

 

Sister had in my view very little choice, considering the family culture and structure. I saw her, a few days later, in the bar, when she asked me to BF her. I told her to go home. I am still angry about seeing her there. She could do a betetr job, drive the family car. But it wouldn't keep mum in the lifestyle she expected.

 

 

[Guest]

[color:blue]Yes it is in the culture, and has a lot to do with a similar 'cultural' attitude in neighbouring countries.

 

Forgive me if I sound like feminist rethoric , but women are brought up in these countries with the duty to serve men, that men are 'more important, need to be obeyed, and that elders need to be obeyed. It is simply an issue of power differential.color=blue>

 

 

 

That may be one aspect, but you need to combine that with social attitude that prostitution is not so bad (compared to other cultures). Which is why cultures such as afghanistan don't have the same level of prostitution.

 

 

 

Your post does make me consider a slightly different angle. I think that very few prostitutes in Thailand are physically forced into it (or coerced through other unsavory tricks and tactics). The fact that the profession exists in the open and that women seemingly choose it freely implies that they are making the best choice available to them in the circumstances (e.g. it's better than factory work). However, this does not necessarily imply they are better off than if prostitution did not exist at all. I.e. that they would be happier with factory work if hooking were not an option because they were doing all that was reasonable and possible for them to do for their families. Whereas choosing factory work over prostitution may make them feel guilty or counter-intuitively make their families think less of them.

 

 

 

It's a very subtle distinction, but I think the girls are still better off overall because prostitution is an option. We should certainly err on the side of giving more choices; it's a dangerous game to social engineer by taking them away.

[Guest]

[color:blue]Sister had in my view very little choice, considering the family culture and structure.color=blue>

 

 

 

Perhaps then the problem is not with prostitution, but blind filial devotion? The same filial devotion can cause the girls to make many other choices that are not in their best interest (who to marry, not going to school, ...).

 

 

 

I would never suggest that prostitution is always good for a society or even a community, but it can be. So there is no reason to outlaw prostitution, but regulating it (as you would a casino), and fixing the problems associated with it (which vary by culture) is the proper solution. IMO.

[pattaya127]

P127, I don't think solipsism is the answer

 

------------------------------------

 

 

 

I certainly mean that whatever our opinion is if it's alright for a girl to do it, we should admit it's peripheral, not from personal experience and realize this is a subject we very much live from the other side, or not at all. the women do.

 

i am also one to think that some women have been empowered, not so much by prostitution but by the contact with foreigners, and the fact that it happens in ghetto-like conditions (tourist ghetto that is), so they build a new and strong persona outside of normal thai life or by the time they get back to life in thai society, their money possibly overrides the social stigma. The best example is still the BG marrying a foreigner and moving to another country/life. Not sure it should prevent us from looking at the conditions that make a woman service men intimately, esp. as a great majority of them do not get empowered that much or are possibly exposed to aids and other ills

[pattaya127]

The fact that the profession exists in the open and that women seemingly choose it freely implies that they are making the best choice available to them in the circumstances

 

--------------------------------------

 

 

 

circumstances (social and conjectural as concerns Thailand) is the main word i think. There had been instances in my life, even more for my parents in a different time, where circumstances led us to do or accept certain things and actually we did NOT have a choice. Or as they said, a limited choice between a rock and a hard place (hope that's the correct expression). My opinion only but to me, the drastic LACK of choice/opportunity/education is the cause of women going into prostitution, and free is not an adjective that fits such a choice. A different kind of coercion, but in a different and more subtle degree, still one.

[Guest]

[color:blue]My opinion only but to me, the drastic LACK of choice/opportunity/education is the cause of women going into prostitution, color=blue>

 

 

 

Which is why, rather than taking away their best choice now (which some people propose), we should try instead to open up better choices. Better education, more equality in the workforce, less sexual harrassment, ....

[Guest]

phoenix wrote:

 

 

 

Yes it is in the culture, and has a lot to do with a similar 'cultural' attitude in neighbouring countries. Forgive me if I sound like feminist rethoric , but women are brought up in these countries with the duty to serve men, that men are 'more important, need to be obeyed, and that elders need to be obeyed. It is simply an issue of power differential.

 

 

 

This is one aspect, agreed, but IMO it is not "simply an issue of power differential."

 

 

 

Someone mentioned Afganistan. Another example is India. Yes, there are prostitutes there, but there are many differences that stem from the culture.

 

 

 

In India, prostitutes almost exclusively come from a few areas (Nepal and Bangladesh come to mind), and many are forced into the trade. Even among the poorest in India, it is virtually unheard of to send daughters to work in the red light districts. Similarly with men--it's mostly the poorest (truck drivers, taxi drivers, and such) who frequent the brothels (and the very rich who keep their pay for play women, just like elsewhere in the world).

 

 

 

The mainstream culture in India (regardless of religion, regardless if they're Sikhs, Muslims, or Hindus) is very strongly family oriented. You may laugh, but many (possibly majority) of males entering into arranged marriage at the age 22-28 are virgins, with zero experience with dating, flirting, or seducing women. Same for women, only more so. Having a couple of dates in college can ruin a girl's reputation.

 

 

 

You may say I'm talking about the middle class culture. But this aspect of the culture is common across all classes. Yes, poverty sometimes forces people to make choices discordant with their culture and values. I'm sure some girls in India do, either on their own or with encouragement from parents, go into the trade. But the reason it doesn't happen at the same scale as say in Thailand, are cultural. It is not acceptable, therefore it is exceptional.

 

 

 

In many countries, notably UK, there are many more Indian immigrants than Thais, by as much as an order of magnitude. Yet, for every Indian prostitute (OK, I meant to say escort) there is a dozen Thais. It has nothing to do with poverty or gender power issues.

 

 

 

I'm well aware that the above discussion is a gross simplification, but I tried to factor out the relevant stuff. The point I was trying to make is that in India, though the poverty is much, much worse than in Thailand, and the power differential between sexes is even more exaggerated than it is in Thailand, prostitution is generally not an option for young women because of a different value system--in other words, for cultural reasons.

 

 

 

PS: Not sure GTG expected this in response to her rethorical question, but if anyone thinks prostitution in Thailand flourishes because of farang they are dead wrong.

[Guest]

[color:blue]Having a couple of dates in college can ruin a girl's reputation. color=blue>

 

 

 

Rigid morals like this can actually increase the rate of prostitution in some cultures. The premise being that once a girl has been "ruined", i.e. had more than one boyfriend, lost her virginity, etc. that some societies then relegate her almost to the level of a prostitute. If you're going to get treated as one, why not get paid for it?

 

 

 

[color:blue]for every Indian prostitute (OK, I meant to say escort) there is a dozen Thais. It has nothing to do with poverty or gender power issues.color=blue>

 

 

 

The demand is another big factor, but it doesn't disprove your thesis. The demand for Thai girls is much higher almost everywhere than for Indian girls; partly because of the reputation/mystique of Thai girls, but also because they are arguably more attractive to most westerners (on average). So much so that many south east asian girls will claim to be Thai, even if they are not.