CIA 'running secret terror jails' (in LOS too)

[khunsanuk]

Hi,

 

"When Bin Laden was fighting the Soviets, The US supplied him with material to fight the soviets. If this is creating an allie, Then we are guilty. Not actually "WE" but the CIA."

 

Who provides the CIA with its funding? Who appoints its leaders?

I do not think there is any difference in your "WE" and the CIA.

 

Sanuk!

[..]

Evel_Penivel said:

Neither bin Laden nor Saddam Hussein were "allies" of the U.S. except in the loosest sense of the word. They certainly weren't "created" by the U.S.

packy said:

When Bin Laden was fighting the Soviets, The US supplied him with material to fight the soviets. If this is creating an allie, Then we are guilty. Not actually "WE" but the CIA.

KS mentioned the obvious, of course. The CIA is "us." And we have a long history of grooming allies even when we say we are not. Well, were the British our ally in the days before we entered WWI? I would say yes. And we supported them even though we were "neutral" in the conflict. Remember the Lusitania? Do you know why it sunk? One reason was because it had a bellyful of arms and munitions being sent from us to the UK. This sale of war goods was not illegal by US law (outside of dangerous cargo on a passenger liner) until 1935, but not really a neutral act, eh?

 

Was Saddam our ally? Of course he was, in the misguided sense that "my enemy's enemy is my friend." We hated Iran more than Iraq, so voila. From The National Security Archive: (The) Declassified documents posted today include the briefing materials and diplomatic reporting on two Rumsfeld trips to Baghdad, reports on Iraqi chemical weapons use concurrent with the Reagan administration's decision to support Iraq, and decision directives signed by President Reagan that reveal the specific U.S. priorities for the region: preserving access to oil, expanding U.S. ability to project military power in the region, and protecting local allies from internal and external threats.

 

As for ObL. As his unclassified CIA biography states, bin Laden left Saudi Arabia to fight the Soviet army in Afghanistan after Moscow?s invasion in 1979. By 1984, he was running a front organization known as Maktab al-Khidamar - the MAK - which funneled money, arms and fighters from the outside world into the Afghan war.

 

What the CIA bio conveniently fails to specify (in its unclassified form, at least) is that the MAK was nurtured by Pakistan?s state security services, the Inter-Services Intelligence agency, or ISI, the CIA?s primary conduit for conducting the covert war against Moscow?s occupation.

 

Yet the CIA, concerned about the factionalism of Afghanistan made famous by Rudyard Kipling, found that Arab zealots who flocked to aid the Afghans were easier to ?read? than the rivalry-ridden natives. While the Arab volunteers might well prove troublesome later, the agency reasoned, they at least were one-dimensionally anti-Soviet for now. So bin Laden, along with a small group of Islamic militants from Egypt, Pakistan, Lebanon, Syria and Palestinian refugee camps all over the Middle East, became the ?reliable? partners of the CIA in its war against Moscow.

 

...to this day, those involved in the decision to give the Afghan rebels access to a fortune in covert funding and top-level combat weaponry continue to defend that move in the context of the Cold War. Sen. Orrin Hatch, a senior Republican on the Senate Intelligence Committee making those decisions, told my colleague Robert Windrem that he would make the same call again today even knowing what bin Laden would do subsequently. ?It was worth it,? he said. ?Those were very important, pivotal matters that played an important role in the downfall of the Soviet Union,? he said.

 

Unbelieveable!

 

Here's an American thought: Arab life has as much intrinsic value as American life. We are SUPPOSED to be better than the horrible regimes we must fight (not just those we choose to fight). Due process is a fundamental tenet of civilization. The law is supposed to be better than us. We have veered so badly away from sanity that re-reading an Eisenhower speech or two puts one to the left of Noam Chomsky. I miss Hunter S. Thompson. We need him -- but he isn't gone...he lives on in his work:

 

We have become a Nazi monster in the eyes of the whole world -- a nation of bullies and bastards who would rather kill than live peacefully. We are not just Whores for power and oil, but killer whores with hate and fear in our hearts. We are human scum, and that is how history will judge us. No redeeming social value. Just whores. Get out of our way, or we'll kill you. "Well, shit on that dumbness, George W. Bush does not speak for me or my son or my mother or my friends or the people I respect in this world. We didn't vote for these cheap, greedy little killers who speak for America today -- and we will not vote for them again in 2002. Or 2004. Or ever. "Who does vote for these dishonest shitheads? Who among us can be happy and proud of having all this innocent blood on our hands? Who are these swine? These flag-sucking half-wits who get fleeced and fooled by stupid rich kids like George Bush? "They are the same ones who wanted to have Muhammad Ali locked up for refusing to kill gooks. They speak for all that is cruel and stupid and vicious in the American character. They are the racists and hate mongers among us -- they are the Ku Klux Klan. I piss down the throats of these Nazis. "And I am too old to worry about whether they like it or not. Fuck them.

 

I always thought he was too loose with the Nazi analogy, but I always got his point: if you're on the dying end of this madness, they might as well be monsters. It is interesting to remember what Churchill said:

 

The power of the Executive to cast a man into prison without formulating any charge known to the law, and particularly to deny him the judgment of his peers, is in the highest degree odious and is the foundation of all totalitarian government whether Nazi or Communist.

 

I guess the exception is when and if Dick Cheney thinks we have a good reason to torture and deny due process. If these men are not impeached and thrown in jail, we truly are approaching the end of days.

 

Thank Buddha Bill Moyers is still around. Here he offers a very good and very compelling cry from, like me, a citizen who finds himself deeply disturbed, but unbowed by this trend of collective insanity. He is one of the best we have left, even though "they" have tried to silence him. Ya know, Jesus was a radical to be sure, but in an opposite way from the war mongers and profiteers who use his name today. I can't get past "thou shalt not kill" and look at this carnage and see any rational way one could say these men follow any modern and accepted concept of Jesus Christ. Alas, the money lenders have well and truly invaded the temple. So to quote Moyers:

 

One of the biggest changes in politics in my lifetime is that the delusional is no longer marginal. It has come in from the fringe, to sit in the seat of power in the Oval Office and in Congress. For the first time in our history, ideology and theology hold a monopoly of power in Washington. Theology asserts propositions that cannot be proven true; ideologues hold stoutly to a worldview despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality. When ideology and theology couple, their offspring are not always bad but they are always blind. And there is the danger: voters and politicians alike, oblivious to the facts.

 

To read the rest of this remarkable speech, go here.

 

That's enough for now.

 

Regards,

SD

[..]

BaronTT said:

If you recall, about 2years ago one of the US military police guards at Gitzmo was put in prisoners garb and put in a cell, as part of a training exercise. End result is that he almost DIED from the 'normal' treatment within a few hours, as the guards somehow confuse him with a regular prisoner.

Yup. Details here and here. "Funny" how this story never made it into the real mainstream media (CNN, Faux News, ABC, NBC, CBS)...but not surprising.

 

Regards,

SD

[Hugh_Hoy]

"60 Minutes" did a segment on this a year ago. As for being "normal" treatment, I am highly sketptical. Maybe treatment for prisoners who have beat the shit out of a jail guard and is continuing to be beligerent...as was the scenario in the exercise. In those situations, you don't conduct a "last man standing" tournament. You go in "in force" and show the asshole who's boss.

 

HH

[Guest]

some say war(s) fuel the economy. keep the ppl scared and fighting and they will keep working ( paying taxes) and not ask too many questions.

 

seems when one threat ( ussr maybe ?) goes away a bigger badder ( and smarter) one takes it place.

 

if everyone got along, what the politicians do for work ( fame, glory, ect)

 

IMHO, the ppl that run for office do it for the wrong reasons, not the kind of ppl that should be running things

[..]

That would be the Orwell theory, yes.

 

And yes, given all the shit that happens in a political campaign (US anyway), who in their right mind would actually want to do that.

 

Cheers,

SD

[Bangkoktraveler]

Call them what they are, Terrorists, radical people killing off their own people. They are not human. No human kills his own without benefit.

 

Does that hold true to the people and their off springs who almost eliminated the original people of America?

[Bangkoktraveler]

That would be the Orwell theory, yes.

 

I wonder if Orwell got any of his ideas for his book when he was a police officer in Burma? Small world.

[packy]

KS, every US citizen does not approve of the CIA. They actually have little to no say. If I had the power, I would abolish the CIA. One radical in the wrong place could abolish our freedoms. They definitely were just fishing in the dark with the WMD's.

[packy]

I wasn't here then. I'm an old man but I do not think I can be held accountable for the actions of my ancestors. The American Indians, I have indian blood in my veins, as well as Irish, German, English and French. I do not approve of everything they have done. The French for hardly firing a weapon before surrendering the Northern part of France in WWII, The Germans for following an Austria in WWII, The English for taxation without Representation of the colonies, and the Irish for their religious bigotry, But I am one person. I decide what I want, I decide wen I will do what I like, and whom I will do it with. My great Grandfather fought in the Revolutionary war but he was on the loosing side, but that does not mean I think he was right. He was a mercenary fighting for the Bitish. I'm Heinz 57 Varieties all rolled into one!